Assault Weapons?

[oldno7]

If you have a hard time understanding the 2nd amendment, maybe the framers con make it more concise and you will understand why many of us hold these guaranteed rights so dear.



Second Amendment– The right to keep and bear arms.
"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals…It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has the right to deprive them of." –Albert Gallatin, October 7, 1789, New York Historical Society
"...the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms" – from article in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette June 18, 1789 at 2, col.2.
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." –Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds, Boston, 1850).
"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to Congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." –William Rawle, A View of the Constitution125-6 (2nd ed. 1829)
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." –Joseph Story, called the father of America’s Jurisprudence, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States; With a Preliminary Review of the Constitutional History of the Colonies and States before the Adoption of the Constitution [Boston, 1833].
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and the keystone under independence." –George Washington
COMMENTARIES ON RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." –Thomas Jefferson papers
"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it." –James Madison, Federalist No. 46.
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." –Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press, 1975)
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" –Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." –Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8
"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." –Zachariah Johnson
"A free people ought … to be armed …" –George Washington
"… the people have a right to keep and bear arms." –Patrick Henry and George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386
"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny, or in private self-defense …" –John Adams

"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." –Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of Virginia … taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater … confidence than an armed man." –Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside…Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them…" –Thomas Paine, Writings of Thomas Paine, at 56,1894, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775).
"When firearms go, all goes; we need them every hour." –George Washington
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." –Thomas Jefferson, The Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318, Foley, Ed.
When speaking in Virginia in a fiery speech for freedom, Patrick Henry proclaimed; "… an appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!"
Warning
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." –Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers

[BruteForce]

Well, Magpul PMAG 30's have just doubled in price today. Yesterday and on Saturday, I could get them for $17-19/each (with the window), now they're going for $28. The stores (brick-mortar and online) smell the pending ban and are jacking up the prices.

[Iceaxe]

Let's talk about the title of this thread.... First there is no such thing as an "assault weapon". The term is nothing but a label applied by the anti-gun crowd in an attempt to begin banning all privately owned guns used for sport, defense and hunting. Any weapon you could assault someone with would be and assault weapon, including a rock.

[rockgremlin]

Hopefully this handy dandy reference chart will clear up all this confusion....

[accadacca]

Well, Dicks Sporting Goods and Walmart just took "assault weapons" off the shelves: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/video...oting-18006749

[accadacca]

There will always be disagreement on where to draw the line. From a pragmatic standpoint, I don't see the "need" for your average citizen to own an automatic rifle (for example). It is basically a dangerous toy.

If we can't come to consensus about gun control, then perhaps we should consider a national, mandatory gun education act. Part of social studies in the schools.

Agreed.

[Byron]

But how many gun owners (the law-abiding kind) actually aspire to own an automatic weapon? I think this is a marginal issue that has been used to create misguided support for some of the more dangerous NRA propaganda.

I would love to own a fully automatic weapon....back in the early 90s, my cousin's husband (a really great guy) owned a fully auto AK-47. Man, that thing was a blast to light up. If they were legal, I'd bet that a double digit percentage of current gun owners would buy one, or two. I know I would.

[BruteForce]

Well, Dicks Sporting Goods and Walmart just took "assault weapons" off the shelves: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/video...oting-18006749

So did KSL.. We are truly doomed now!

[Iceaxe]

So did KSL.. We are truly doomed now!

I see a golden opportunity for someone with serious IT skills. KSL was Utah's gun store. Someone will capitalize on KSL leaving and fill the void, while also banking some major coin if it is done correctly.

Sent using Tapatalk

[accadacca]

Oh brother!!!

[accadacca]

See how to embed KSL Videos in your posts

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=234...cid=featured-4

[accadacca]

There is a zombie apocalypse special airing tonight on discovery. Right now!

I take back EVERYTHING I said.

[oldno7]

I see a golden opportunity for someone with serious IT skills. KSL was Utah's gun store. Someone will capitalize on KSL leaving and fill the void, while also banking some major coin if it is done correctly.

Sent using Tapatalk

Go to ksl.com now--several web sites vying for the position. One will take hold.
When one door closes....

[Bo_Beck]

If you have a hard time understanding the 2nd amendment, maybe the framers con make it more concise and you will understand why many of us hold these guaranteed rights so dear.

Very precise and thourough when it was written! Definatelty gives Adam and others like him the inaliable right to bear arms! If he had been in Virgin Utah....what would have kept him from bearing arms? Does the town of Virgin have in place a "check-gate" to determine who can or cannot own a firearm? Which ammendment determines mental illness?

[hank moon]

The 2nd amendment is not currently relevant to the discussion of gun control. The right to own and bear arms has always been strongly supported in American politics (that's how it got in the Constitution).

Reminds me of this other red herring:

Attachment 62123

[Bo_Beck]

The 2nd amendment is not currently relevant to the discussion of gun control. The right to own and bear arms has always been strongly supported in American politics (that's how it got in the Constitution).

Reminds me of this other red herring:

Attachment 62123

I don't suggest gun control at all. I own a firearm. I'd hate to see my right of ownership denied Hank. I merely wonder (or rather ask) how is a determination to be made that might keep guns out of the hands of people like Adam? Is there some sort of resolve to what seems to be a cancer in our society?

[oldno7]

Very precise and thourough when it was written! Definatelty gives Adam and others like him the inaliable right to bear arms! If he had been in Virgin Utah....what would have kept him from bearing arms? Does the town of Virgin have in place a "check-gate" to determine who can or cannot own a firearm? Which ammendment determines mental illness?

Bo
I agree with you 100%, I don't know the solution to mental illness and/or crazy people but it seems some in congress are calling for this to be addressed.
Simply put though--I see no possible method to keep someone bent on inflicting harm, from doing so.
Methods of delivery are vast and ones who will inflict harm will find a way. I hope you and I, and others who are so prepared, would be able to stop these people from harming us and those we care about.
I'm somehow not aware of the point your making in regards to Virgin. I do recall awhile back they imposed mandatory gun possession for it's citizens. I haven't followed the progress of this.

[hank moon]

I'd hate to see my right of ownership denied Hank.

as I said in the last post, that 2nd Amendment right is not threatened. It's a non-issue. As to your other question, super moot, but let's keep mootin'

[Iceaxe]

If we can't come to consensus about gun control, then perhaps we should consider a national, mandatory gun education act. Part of social studies in the schools.

I'm all for this, and the program already exists. Just take the current Hunter's Safety Course, rename it "Firearm's Safety". All the material could be covered in one week during Social Studies. If you wanted to cut out the hunting regulations of the program the safety aspect could be covered in 2 or 3 days.

Since Hunter's Safety was introduced in Utah the accident rate has dropped something like 90%. It is amazing what a little education can do.

But people need to understand, nothing will stop a mad man, who has no designs on escaping alive. With $100 in Walmart fertilizer and diesel fuel from the corner gas station you can create a bomb that will take out 100 kids at a whack. The propane tank from your BBQ with a small trigger available over the interwebs also creates a nice big bomb... you can't legislate against insanity.

[oldno7]

The 2nd amendment is not currently relevant to the discussion of gun control.

It's very much relevant, it is only moot to those who wish it would go away and somehow we could become a gun free society.

I wonder how those who's view on the war on drugs has not been a success, somehow think the war on guns will be.