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Thread: Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques
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03-20-2012, 01:17 PM #41
Here is the short answer. I don't recall any problems. We had Spidey. Honestly, we used the sand trap at every rappel. I can't remember if Spidey downclimbed or not. In canyons there is Ram who remembers everything and there is me who remembers what a fun day I had. In other words, I have to see a canyon at least twice to start remembering details of each drop. I am terrible at the little details of the canyons on my first descent. Sorry about that. Maybe Dan remembers.
Life is Good
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03-20-2012 01:17 PM # ADS
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03-20-2012, 01:21 PM #42
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03-20-2012, 01:28 PM #43
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03-20-2012, 01:35 PM #44
BlueWater? or homemade? I would make it a lot wider, so the rope would be looser in it, so it can be tied to the retrieval strand top and bottom, and when pulled the rap strand would easily slide through it. Of course, it does not protect the rock during the pulling phase, in a normal "pull-through" situation.
Tom
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03-20-2012, 01:40 PM #45
Devil,
When stacking potshots, you have 2 components. The first being the bottom potshot, which is the anchor, like the bottom rock in a deadman. The 2nd part being all other potshots, which are there to add friction and weight. The placement of part 1 and part 2 need to be well thought out. There is a lot more that goes into placement than piling potshots on top.
Rob
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03-20-2012, 01:44 PM #46
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03-20-2012, 01:51 PM #47
My ideas on the sandtrap involved attaching BD talons to the pull line via a prussic cord or better yet--to adapt to length, a purcell prussic.
In tostado mode--fold sandtrap length wise, fasten talon in weakness/crach/whatever.
Fold sandtrap over talon and add sand to solidify and hold talon in place.
repeat on other side.
Would only be good on slickrock with a crack or some feature to attach talon to.
pulling on pull cord dumps sand--as usual and disrupts talons from there holding spot.
Could also be used in taco mode in the right spot.
I showed this to Ram and we didn't have a place to try the "idea"(which is all it is at this point)
Thoughts?
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03-20-2012, 01:55 PM #48
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03-20-2012, 02:10 PM #49
They show the product on their site
http://www.jhrgllc.com/fabricthread/...chafegear.html
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03-20-2012, 02:21 PM #50
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03-20-2012, 02:33 PM #51
Sorry Devil! I didn't mean to offend.
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03-20-2012, 02:37 PM #52
A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.
Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.
Definitely not intended as an "only way to do it" method.
Maybe a spot like---where you fell?
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03-20-2012, 03:11 PM #53
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03-20-2012, 03:28 PM #54
Any and all ideas are welcome.
There are canyoneers of different experience levels participating. Some will be more comfortable with certain ideas while others embrace truly on the edge stuff. Let's keep communication simple and straightforward so that people can tell what is 'tried and true' and what is an 'idea'. Remember cyber language is easily misinterpreted.
Keep it coming. I've been trying to set a foundation for this conversation all week. We've covered potshots pretty well except for some fine points such as the one that Devil and PG have clarified.
We have only started on the trap, I hope.
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03-20-2012, 03:36 PM #55
All tools and options I agree.......
So are you suggesting to only use a sandtrap according to manufactures recommendations and where it won't work just bolt?
Is your "grey" tool capable of accepting potentially viable input from other sources or is it destined to repeated failure?
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03-20-2012, 03:41 PM #56
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03-20-2012, 03:44 PM #57
You threw out an idea, looking for response. Now you object to my response, on the basis that it is negative and questioning? I believe we are both accusing the other of having a closed mind. C'mon Kurt. YOU just got some canyon time in, so I was hoping to see a less bristley No. 7 for at least another couple days...
There are many more tools than SandTraps and Bolts, as you imply is the limit of one's toolbox. Some people find hooks useful. I have not, though I have not tried them much. (Saved us from a cold bivy once, though!)
Tom
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03-20-2012, 04:14 PM #58
I would never object to questioning---negative on the other hand seems counter productive to the exchange of ideas in the interest of improving a mousetrap.
I had a similar conversation a few years ago with a guy looking to make a new rappel device. I have a friend with a plazma cutter so this guy sends me his dimension for his rappel device. Upon looking at said layout I drew up a variant and sent it in along with this guys version to the plazma cutter.
His variation is picture #1, my variation is picture #2.
He said my idea was to big and bulky and would never work, so he sent his design in to the machining company and they came back with picture #3. After repeated testing by that guy, my former partner and myself, we decided the device was o.k. but very limited.
A new version came out, it is in picture #4, I guess he's doing o.k. with it but I wouldn't know, we don't talk much anymore.
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03-20-2012, 05:05 PM #59Originally Posted by penmartensOriginally Posted by penmartens
Originally Posted by oldno7
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03-20-2012, 08:23 PM #60
I am gonna jump in here! Look y'all, I invented the Sandtrap( MaxxiPad) as we first called it (but Tom correctly suggested that there are some very politically correct and delicate souls out there....). Because of the difficulty and time constraints in setting up the stacked, piled or whatever you want to call it pot-shot configuration and the split bag results of some pulls, I came up with the MaxxiPad(don'tya love it!) design. Me and my wife Maria, who sewed the original one, tested it on over 200 raps personally before intro'ing to the general canyoneering crowd, and it works, as a lot of you ACTIVE canyoneers are finding out. It works well in the "flat" or "tostada" mode, and in the "taco" mode hanging behind a pothole lip. Experimenting WITH BACKUP in each of these modes is a learning experience. I recently did a canyon that I named Crack City because of the multiple elevator downclimbs, one Sandtrap descent and one potshot "jamb" because there was not enough sand or a favorable position to use the Sandtrap. So the Sandtrap is a useful tool in your quiver, to be used when the situation requires.Also, I do not know how long the garden hose idea has been around, but I came up with the idea, tested it for specific use with the Sandtrap to reduce retrieval pull and it works twofold- reduces pull and prevents rope grooves, as most grooves are a result of the retrieval, not the rap( think continuous moving rope friction on rock)....be safe out there!
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