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Thread: Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques
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03-21-2012, 08:45 AM #61
It looks like the hose works sometimes. PG Rob got a 50% success rate in No Kidding. When it doesn't work, what part doesn't; slides down rope, jams,...?
Tom split the hose for ease of application. It sounds like maybe a hose without the split is better. True?
Tom is using about a 3 foot length. Steve, what length are you using? Do you split the hose?
Ideas:
I like the idea along the lines of the technora sheath. I am getting used to carrying the hose, but am not liking it much. It is, admittedly, an obsessive/compulsive thing on my part.
Everyone seems to be attaching the protective sheath to the pull rope which doesn't negate the friction on rock when emptying the trap. What about attaching the sheath(s) to the trap itself and having both the rap rope and the pull rope going through a sheath.
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03-21-2012 08:45 AM # ADS
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03-21-2012, 08:52 AM #62
Are you losing valuable rope friction with the use of the hose and/or sheath on the rap rope? Seems that the pull over the edge with the pull cord is not that much wear and tear on the rock. Opinions? (I guess some of the answer is how far back from the edge the anchor is)
Life is Good
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03-21-2012, 09:46 AM #63Originally Posted by penmartens
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03-21-2012, 09:51 AM #64
It's complicated.
Yes, you lose valuable rope friction over the edge, so the weight in the SandTrap needs to be somewhat higher. Not usually a problem. Overall, better to toss more sand on the SandTrap than to create grooves.
While it is not as bad as pulling the entire wet-and-sandy rope through a ring, SandTraps do create rope grooves on both the rappel side and the pull side. For several reasons:
1. Sandtrap worthy canyons tend to be in very soft rock which grooves easily;
2. the sections of pull cord and rappel rope that touch the rope tend to be slightly wet and fully sandy, so they have the maximum groove-cutting potential;
3. The rappel rope tends to bounce up and down somewhat in the process of the rappel. The Trap generally needs to pull UP to the max-weight position, which tends to happen over the course of the rappel, and moves 12 - 24 inches;
4. The pull cord tends to cut grooves too. While there is not a LOT of action on that side, while it is being pulled it requires a pretty hard pull (ie, body weight, sometimes twice body weight) to pull the trap, and that means the dirty pull cord where it crossed the rock will move 24-36 inches at that high tension, which creates grooves. The hose on that side helps decrease the force required considerably.
It does not matter how far back the Trap is. What counts is the angle the rope changes through going over the edge.
Tom
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03-21-2012, 10:26 AM #65
Do you guys attach the pull side hose/protection to the sandtrap in any way or does the last person set it in position, or both?
As long as the hose/protection is attached to the trap, the pull rope should slide through the protection up to the moment the trap releases.
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03-21-2012, 11:19 AM #66
Well, generally it is set up on the pull side whenever the pull side is set up. Might be last, might be earlier.
The problem is on the rap side. The point of contact is often at and over the lip. When the rapper raps, the hose is held in place by tension in the rope, but it can drop down if tension is released. And it can be in the way of getting ON the rope, or of starting the rappel, or both. So, not an ideal tool, maybe the new thingee will work somewhat better.
Easier on the SandTrap and Fiddlestick, as the rope does not need to be pulled through.
Tom
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03-21-2012, 11:58 AM #67
I guess my question wasn't very clear. If you go back and look at my technora device, it has a small piece of cord attached.
--if that small cord is attached to the front of the trap--the rope will slide more freely.
cord needs to be adjusted for each situation but it will hold the protection in it's intended position, right up to the release of sand from the trap.
cord could also be attached to a part of the stein when fiddlesticking.
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03-21-2012, 12:34 PM #68
yes, but...
I was thinking a more-universal system would include a loop of P-cord on each end of the sleeve, with a plastic biner. Use that to do a Bachman knot up and down. That way it could be placed anywhere along the length, rather than within X length of the SandTrap or Fiddlestick.
T
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03-21-2012, 12:40 PM #69
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03-21-2012, 01:10 PM #70
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03-21-2012, 01:27 PM #71
I think we speak 2 different languages for sure, my language tries to make the complex--simple; yours is to make the simple--complex.
If the edge needing protection is 25' away from the trap, you need 25' of usable cord.
The protection cannot merely be attached to the rope with a hitch because then when the rope moves the protection moves.
The set up I just took pictures of has the technora sheath velcro'd tightly around the rope but I can pull the pull side through the sheath still, because it is anchored to the trap.
It's a nice day--go out in your yard, set it up and see if it makes any more sense.
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03-21-2012, 03:33 PM #72
Thanks for all the input and especially for all the drawings and photos. They are very helpful since we can't all be face-to-face.
We have a trapping canyon planned in a couple weeks. I think I'll rig something like 'the technora attached to the trap' and see how that goes. I'll report back.
Yes, friction is our friend when rapping on these types of anchors, so perhaps a slick inner surface hose isn't the way to go on the rap side. What about a fabric? I wouldn't think that would cut down on the friction much.
Oldno, did you buy the technora sheath or did you sew it yourself?
So, here's another question: Tom said traps aren't usually stacked, but potshots have been used on top of traps. What about using traps side by side on a flat surface, similar to 2 anchor points that climbers use?
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03-21-2012, 03:53 PM #73
It would be a frightful day if I attempted to sew anything. I posted a link a ways back to the company that manufactured these.
I think multiple traps would work great as long as time is spent making sure they are equalized. The more inline, the better.(ie. one in front of the other, rather than side by side)
Could run into complications on the pull?
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03-21-2012, 04:23 PM #74
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03-21-2012, 04:26 PM #75
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03-21-2012, 05:00 PM #76
What situations are you imagining where double traps would be useful, , ie, a better solution than using the same sand on one trap?
It's an interesting idea - I'm just having trouble coming up more than one or two obscure situations where it would prove useful, so I am wondering what situations you are thinking of where it would offer advantages.
Tom
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03-21-2012, 05:02 PM #77
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03-21-2012, 05:07 PM #78
What is the fiddlestick you two are talking about?
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03-21-2012, 05:13 PM #79
Tom,
The situations I was thinking of are obscure. If I told you a specific place then you would probably want to see a picture and I don't have time to dig it up. I was thinking of a wide flat area with no lip. Say, if the last rap in Inferno didn't have the pot hole to use as an anchor.
I am just trying to further the conversation, here.
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03-21-2012, 05:47 PM #80
The sleeve attached to the trap worked didn't it
Really just playing along(multiple traps), interesting thoughts though, you must agree.
I don't have it yet, but I'll try to come up with a potential scenario.
Just having these conversations can only open our minds and sharpen our thought process'
Being content and "knowing" something can only be used in a certain way, hence closing down all new conversation, can't be too advantageous.
Penny spelled out that there needs to be designations between tried and proven methods vs. ideas. Seems reasonable to me.
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