Busy SAR week Pine Creek area rescue 4/30

[Iceaxe]

A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners)

The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything...

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."

[Cirrus2000]

A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."

Yep, and yep.

[trackrunner]

Yeah... something like 3 Pine Creek rescues already in 2010.... not a great display of skill by the community so far this year when descending the kiddie canyons...

The simple things that beginners overlook, or simply don't know. On a free hanging rappel hang your pack off the "front" of your harness, avoids abdominal fatigue and reduces the chances of flipping over backwards.(more important in flowing water)
A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.

The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything...

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."

QFE. three really good points

[oldno7]

Also--if a little bit more "experienced", they could have set up a simple 3:1 system and with 5-6 people still waiting up top, hauled the poor upside down guy to the top.(if he was on double strand(likely).)

[Brian in SLC]

On a free hanging rappel hang your pack off the "front" of your harness, avoids abdominal fatigue and reduces the chances of flipping over backwards.(more important in flowing water)
A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?

Contingency anchor would have probably worked? Dunno. A spare rope and a pick off?

Be interesting to hear the details of what actually happened. I can't imagine being upside down, not being able to right myself, and, not being able to eject a pack that I have on (which I've done before, much to the surpise of a partner who couldn't see me and thought it wasn't a pack!).

I can imagine, without much experience, that last rappel tosses folks for a bit of a loop.

[Brian in SLC]

Also--if a little bit more "experienced", they could have set up a simple 3:1 system and with 5-6 people still waiting up top, hauled the poor upside down guy to the top.(if he was on double strand(likely).)

That might be pretty tough to do at that location. Kinda gave that some thought m'self.

Be faster and much, much easier to do a "drop loop" raise at that location. Drop the guy a pre-rigged pulley on a biner, have them clip in, and then raise him up off that. Does require extra rope, though.

If they only had one rappel rope of 60m, then rigging anything on that loaded line would a been pretty tough, much less a C by Z or 3 to 1 or some such.

Good fodder for thought! Time to dust off the self rescue books I suppose...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?
pack!).

.

The idea is to use your pack(in front) to counteract the pull on your abdominal muscles. Anything attached to the back of you or your harness will add to the amount of extra muscle needed to stay upright. I don't know about others, but after about 75-100' of free rappel, If I leave my pack on my back(30-40lbs)It gets harder to stay upright. With it attached in front--smooth sailing, way less fatigue.

[Iceaxe]

not being able to eject a pack that I have on (which I've done before, much to the surpise of a partner who couldn't see me and thought it wasn't a pack!).

I had a partner do this to me in Heaps once and it scared the snot out of me.....

We stashed a 300' rope at the bottom and carried two 60 meter ropes through the slot with us. First guy down was supposed to pass the knot and send up the 300' rope for everyone else.... anyhoo... first guy went down and discover it was difficult to pass the knot while wearing his pack so he let it fly....

I'm sitting up in the bird perch and all I hear is a loud "SLAM".... then.... I have to try and lean over the side and ask the tourist's at the Emerald Pool if he is still alive..... trust me.... that is not a question you ever want to ask... it turns your stomach inside out....

[oldno7]

That might be pretty tough to do at that location. Kinda gave that some thought m'self.



-Brian in SLC

It may very well be tough. My thoughts were to have the "experienced" guy set up the 3:1 while tethered at the anchor. The group is given the pull end of the haul system directly over the rock and up canyon, trying to stay in alignment with the haul. The guy at the anchor is in control and re sets the system each time progress is made. You would have to attache a grab to the double strands of rope, once tension was off the top of the rappel rope, a knot should be placed just above the grab to secure against a slip.
Never done it there, would be fun to do. Any upside down volunteers?

[ratagonia]

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?

The difference between clipped in front and clipped in back is small. I guess the thing about being clipped in front (and then I usually toss it over my left leg to get it out of the way) is that it is really within reach, and if I need to manipulate it (through a slot, or over an arete, for instance) then it is "at hand" without gymnastics to reach behind me.

In a class C (flowing water) canyon, or really, whenever it works well, I like having it close to the body, not hanging low. Partly to cut the swing-effect; and partly that when it is hanging low it can get tangled with the rope.

Tom

[ratagonia]

It may very well be tough. My thoughts were to have the "experienced" guy set up the 3:1 while tethered at the anchor. The group is given the pull end of the haul system directly over the rock and up canyon, trying to stay in alignment with the haul. The guy at the anchor is in control and re sets the system each time progress is made. You would have to attache a grab to the double strands of rope, once tension was off the top of the rappel rope, a knot should be placed just above the grab to secure against a slip.
Never done it there, would be fun to do. Any upside down volunteers?

Sounds like a bad idea. Hauling upward would not hardly ever be my first choice for a rescue.

If you have the materials to do that, then you have the materials to do a cut and lower, or a rap-down and assist. I think it likely that all their resources were committed to the rappel, and the people up top had nothing they could do to help out, other than scream for help (which works here).

Tom

To clarify, while called a "cut and lower", it is actually more like a grab, cut and lower. The "cut" is not the first event in the process.

T

[oldno7]

The difference between clipped in front and clipped in back is small.

Tom

But--the difference from "wearing" your pack, to hanging in front, is huge.

[Iceaxe]

Heck.... if you have an extra rope you just drop it down, tell the dude to hold on (or clip in), and flip him right-side-up....

It would be interesting to know more details....

[oldno7]

Sounds like a bad idea. Hauling upward would not hardly ever be my first choice for a rescue.

If you have the materials to do that, then you have the materials to do a cut and lower, or a rap-down and assist. I think it likely that all their resources were committed to the rappel, and the people up top had nothing they could do to help out, other than scream for help (which works here).

Tom

To clarify, while called a "cut and lower", it is actually more like a grab, cut and lower. The "cut" is not the first event in the process.

T

Agree, thats why I originally stated if they had rigged a contingency, this would have never been anymore than a joke among friends. So simple.
A cut and lower would require enough rope to match the rappel height. A haul would only require 20ish'. It's probably all a moot point, I very much doubt they had any more than 1 rope.

[Don]

The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything...

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zions this weekend...."

There, I fixed it for you. Now it sounds like beginners in Zion.

[Iceaxe]

There, I fixed it for you. Now it sounds like beginners in Zion.

[Brian in SLC]

The idea is to use your pack(in front) to counteract the pull on your abdominal muscles. Anything attached to the back of you or your harness will add to the amount of extra muscle needed to stay upright. I don't know about others, but after about 75-100' of free rappel, If I leave my pack on my back(30-40lbs)It gets harder to stay upright. With it attached in front--smooth sailing, way less fatigue.

I've not really noticed much difference between front and back. I'll agree that front is better for controlling the pack, if you need to get at it and its fairly heavy. Have rappelled a number of times with a fairly heavy haul bag on the front and that works great. Have also rappelled free a number of times with a fairly heavy pack on the back of my harness on the haul loop and no problem there either.

Not convinced it counteracts any pull on the abs, either, versus no pack or pack on the back of the harness. Maybe I need to do a bunch of core exercises, get my abs all worn out, and see if I note any difference. Pretty much all distributed on the belay loop so the balance point? Trying to envision what it does from a balanced load situation. Just pulls pretty much down where the rope is pulling up. Net effect on the abs? None? Dunno. Need to think about it I suppose. How to measure?

Huge difference versus wearing it, to be darn sure.

But...really...who goes through Pine Creek with a 30 to 40 pound pack? Ha ha...

*****

Yeah, Shane, the pack ejection thing. Probably the second to last rappel in Jacob Canyon, wasn't sure the rope reached (went past a dubious piton anchor). Near the end of the rope, tossed the pack down as I didn't want it on me to negotiate the rope end. Really wigged my partner out. He heard it hit then saw it roll and thought for sure it was me. I kinda get a chuckle out of it in hindsite, but, also realize I put him through some fairly heady stuff right then too.

Makes me think its been too long since I've done Pine Creek...!

-Brian in SLC

[nonot]

But--the difference from "wearing" your pack, to hanging in front, is huge.

I have never had the need, or the inkling that I should to take my 40+lb pack from my shoulders and hang it from my harness except in really tight canyons where I can't fit through with a pack on, except once which was just to try it for grins. I haven't flipped other ever on high rappels nor those with lots of freehang. Dunno why you guys make such a big deal out of this?

[trackrunner]

are you a big guy? are you top heavy? do you have man boobs? these people are more prone to flip when there center of gravity is changed by a pack.

pic stolen from canyonwiki





edit: if you were you totally got me. I'll leave the post for someone who this may be helpful for.

[nonot]

Maybe it affects others more, to each their own. I've observed I do lightly grab the rope above the rap device at times, it sure doesn't seem to require the effort the others are describing.