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Thread: Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

  1. #1

    Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

    I know it's not good to have nylon on nylon when there's friction involved, but the rope has no reason to slide when rappelling in canyons (except maybe when you retrieve the rope - even then there's no load on it).

    Leaving behind a bit of webbing for an anchor is necessary and fine, but the extra cash to buy rings is too much. Are there any cons or inherit dangers to rappelling directly off some backed up anchors made of 2" webbing?

    - Blake

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  3. #2
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    yes the pull can become tougher, and may stick the rope, if just using webbing a proper setup can minimize this. another issue is once the rope is pulled the webbing needs to be replace the very next time. the load may not be much but it's small enough to put a friction burn in the webbing. it's a one time anchor IMO. so is it really cheaper in the long run if every single anchor has to be replaced each time?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by trackrunner View Post
    another issue is once the rope is pulled the webbing needs to be replace the very next time. the load may not be much but it's small enough to put a friction burn in the webbing. it's a one time anchor IMO.
    Agreed, you might be leaving comprised webbing for the next unsuspecting canyoneer. I am leery of anchors that have no link or any kind of Home Depot chain link.

    The rapid links at REI are kind of pricey, Black Diamond sells them for less.
    The least expensive way I have found is to purchase them from Tom. You can get a 10 pack of 6mm rapid links for $20. http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252
    Also, I've shopped around and found Omega rings online for less than $3 each if that is what you prefer.

    I would save some money by purchasing 1 inch tubular webbing and use the extra money to buy a pack of links. 2 inch tubular webbing is expensive and it's overkill for canyoneering anchors.

    Bob

  5. #4
    I still remember how Hank discussed with me how to make proper anchors, during the instructional course at ZAC. I happened to ask him as well, 'why the ring'? With an old piece of webbing, he let me put some friction between rope and webbing, by sliding the rope up and down. After a couple of times, the rope sliced through the webbing, like melting it... so easily...... Doing that by myself and seeing it convinced me to invest in the rings

    Remember, it is your own life, your trip-partners lives and possibly many people behind you, who's life may also depend on that piece of webbing... I think small friction burns in the webbing may be difficult to see, giving more risks. So let

  6. #5
    Trail Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake.regalia View Post
    but the extra cash to buy rings is too much.
    Go to Home Depot, grab a chain, use the employee-only cutting machine, and cut your own links. Done.

  7. #6
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maarten.1975 View Post
    I happened to ask him as well, 'why the ring'? With an old piece of webbing, he let me put some friction between rope and webbing, by sliding the rope up and down. After a couple of times, the rope sliced through the webbing, like melting it... so easily......
    Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

    Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Seriously???
    Yep, by sliding about 3 or 4 feet of rope up and down in the webbing, it was really easy to make it 'slice through'... So easy, for me it did the trick: convince me to use the ring. What rope and/ or webbing I used, we should ask Hank... Maybe he remembers

  9. #8
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake.regalia View Post
    but the extra cash to buy rings is too much.
    I bet its been 10 years since I last bought quick-links. I have dozens laying around that I collected while cleaning up rappel stations others have rigged poorly. Just last week I pulled 3 out of Elephant Butte, when I re-rigged the first rappel, which is kinda funny because I pulled three off Elephant Butte in Novemeber when I re-rigged the same rappel station.

    My 2-cents is.... Those that don't know how to tie knots, tie lots of knots. Those that don't know how to rig or evaluate rappel anchors add anther sling and quick-link.

    YMMV

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

    Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?
    Saw this recently.

  11. #10
    I have tried this myself and the rope was through under 10 seconds. (6 mm pull cord on 1 inch tubular)

  12. #11
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

    Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?
    I used to demonstrate this to all students. With an 8mm rope it takes less than 30 seconds.

    NEVER!!Run nylon on nylon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dsr70 View Post
    Go to Home Depot, grab a chain, use the employee-only cutting machine, and cut your own links. Done.
    Actually, Home Depot sells the rapid links for half the price of REI or any climbing store.
    Darin

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Audilard View Post
    Actually, Home Depot sells the rapid links for half the price of REI or any climbing store.
    Darin

    The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

    Ken

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    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    I used to demonstrate this to all students. With an 8mm rope it takes less than 30 seconds.
    I'll try this experiment again.

    FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.

  17. #15
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety.
    Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

    I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.

  18. #16
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

    I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.
    X2 I use 5/16"

  19. #17
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I'll try this experiment again.

    FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.
    You must anchor the webbing and then "pull" on it while sawing with a rope--it will also ruin a spot on your rope...

  20. #18
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Darin

    The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

    Ken
    Hmm....I use them all the time. Most are rated from 1500 lbs to 3000 lbs for a load.
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  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Darin

    The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

    Ken


    Considering the cost of travel and other gear, I'm a little surprised links are on anyone's financial radar. It's like complaining about the cost of tees if you are a golfer. Rapid links cost less than 1% of what I spend on canyoneernig overall. I like to gamble on all kinds of things, so I'll just go ahead and bet the extra $1.25 that the "rigorously tested" rapide isn't going to fail.

    However, if someone has hard data showing Home Depot Links to be as safe as Maillon rapid links, I'm all about using the less expensive option.

    Here is a link to a thread that has some good info on breaking strength and quality control regarding rapid links:

    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...evice-Location

    Page 2 has the best info.

    Bob

  22. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

    I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.
    Shane

    No problem. When you come across one of my Maillons, feel free to remove it and replace it with one of your links.

    Ken

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