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No in-canyon bivy. Long, cold nights, but the water levels were low, and most potholes were dry (which we think made it MUCH easier). Spidey did impressive throws (2) to get potshots over the giant keeper; than batmanned up the rope on the other side. The climb to the first bolt of the 'pit and pendulum' looked kinda dicey.Quote:
Originally Posted by seagorn
Ram will have the trip report in about a week. He got some great pics of spidey doing the tosses.
Tom
Spidey did impressive throws (2) to get potshots over the giant keeper; than batmanned up the rope on the other side. The climb to the first bolt of the 'pit and pendulum' looked kinda dicey.
Ram will have the trip report in about a week. He got some great pics of spidey doing the tosses.
Tom[/quote]
Incredible. We tried hurling a pot shot half full of sand across the pit only to have it land on the flat ground that reaches for dozens of feet beyond the lip of the other side. This Spidey fellow must have been a major league pitcher! Jason and I were certain you guys would have to do the dicey ascent to the pendelum, just like the first ascent party and we did. Just curious, how much water was in that big pothole?
We reduced the weight to between 1/3 and 1/4th; Spidey climbed up high and stemmed the slot, lowered the potshot on the rope about 5 feet then swung it back and forth. Got the first one over second try, and a second one over 3rd try. They did not require much weight, as the placement was good and there was a bit of a lip at the top to catch on.Quote:
Originally Posted by seagorn
Ram or I might have been able to do the same(ish), but Spidey-power allowed him to stand up really high quite comfortably, and not be tied in. Being tied in might have conflicted with getting a good swing on the pendulum.
The big pothole was still swimmer. I'd estimate about 18 feet from water level to the lip on the opposite side. The pothole was again about 18 feet across, and the flat part on the other side was maybe 20 feet, so total throw about 40 feet, with 10 or 15 feet of height advantage.
Really appreciated the slung "wart" on canyon left, somewhat further down, to avoid the super-nasty pothole.
Tom
so our memoried estimates on that ph were influenced by the belly drop effect at the time if you think it was only 18' diameter. are you sure ? i swear it had to be more than that. my bedroom is ~20' wide and i know it is smaller than that rim to rim ph diameter. hmmmmmm... but nice work ! and we definitely had more than 18' between water level in ph and the lip. nice to know it is escapable w/ potshots. i like that idea MUCH better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
yeah, when i saw that 2nd ph i was ready to shoot someone, but since i only had one partner along i resisted. was very happy to sling that wart. mark thought it was loose and crumbly. i thought it was rather solid, even if not 100% ideally shaped. can you break the tie ?
can't wait to hear a full assessment and see some pics !
The wart was good. Looked scrapy from below, but the topside was solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofball
I thought the pothole was 18' wide, 25-30 feet long, and about 18' tall at the exit. I expect we had less water than you, but maybe not. We had LOTS of dry potholes. Would've been REALLY COLD with a lot of water in it, but given the huge size and quantity of potholes, it would take quite a bit of storm action to fill the place up.
Tom
Goof and Gorn, major kudos to you. That canyon was awesome; but definitely the most challenging obstacles I have run into to date.
I second that Tom, Ram and Spidey did an awesome job. We tried to make the toss, and were able to land a shot, but tested the pull from the other rim and were very un-impressed with how little force it took to go back over the lip. In hindsight, should have tried to land another shot or two there, and especially try it from the water. I thought it was a very difficult throw though. Guess I need to go back to Potshot school...
We decided to go the high route after that. Definitely was a challenge. Even worse was the second hook hole blew out, and I took a 20' ground fall. Hit my elbow pretty good on the way down, but otherwise, no injury. I had placed our packs under me so I had something fall on if a hole blew, which probably saved me from a likely twisted or broken ankle. That upclimb was the scariest thing I have done in a LONG time. Kudos to whomever did it on your team.
Luckily, I tested each hole pretty well; using my partners from below, because the top hole blew out too. Would have certainly been a major injury if I was on it. Unfortunately, that meant I had to make some (even more) unprotected, scary climbing moves to get to the first bolt; which I didn't like the looks of. But certainly much better than the unprotected climb up there.
Used that bolt to lean to the second, and felt much better about the second bolt (and now being attached to both.) We used heavy shots to work our way over to the other shore. I was leary about doing a pendulum from a swing due to the sharp ledges on the wall there.
We ended up doing a bivvy in the pothole just before the crux (after retreating from the crux pothole); my first bivvy in a canyon. While it was kind of planned, we were hoping for more. Took LOTS of time at that pothole; something like 10 hrs. The rest were pretty fun in my opinion (but certainly, still challenging.)
Ram's group was insanely skilled; and made it out in well less than a day. Major kudos to them. I don't think I could have done what they did; but plan on working on skills and attempting the canyon again next year.
Overall, it's a great canyon; one of the best I've seen. However, it's also one of the deadliest, in my opinion. The crux pothole takes a lot of skill and power (batman up that line? Wow.) The anchors are insanely bad. Most placed in the watercourse, and over 20 years old. One of them pulled completely out quite easily. The "wart" Tom and Jason talk of is hollow; and is an accident waiting to happen. Yeah, it felt solid enough to rap off right now (very gingerly), but it won't be in the future.
Whomever goes into that canyon next, should take at least 10 bolts, and be prepared to replace many old anchors. Again, just my opinion, YMMV.
I'll have more details and pics out in a TR later.
Take care,
A.J.
Sounds like a pretty real place. Thanks for posting AJ. Hope the elbow heals up quickly.
BTW, I think I made the right choice by excusing myself from the trip...
glad you are ok. i heard someone fell but didn't know who. that ph is serious. mark thought that horn was a really bad idea, i thought it was ok. sounds like mark was right though. the pothole it gets you past is damn nasty looking, maybe a hook or, better yet a bolt, is the most prudent and safest thing there. definitely throughout the canyon bolts need replacing if people are going to continue going in. else it will definitely be sooner rather than later when someone gets seriously injured or killed. mike bogart and jenny hall (& co. ?) who pioneered this canyon have my utmost respect and i am in awe that 1 day was all it took, given all the work and obstacles. wow. also very glad i didn't go back in just before you guys. backed out on a partner and felt bad about, it but VERY glad i did now. rather have busted a camera than become a "forever baby" due to a nasty accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ
but can't wait to see some more pics !
i've had a page up for a bit here - http://www.summitpost.org/user_page.php?user_id=42829 any comments anyone wants to add on poe/smiling cricket or others please do so, it can only help keep people safer. i really like the sp format and how interactive it is, allowing for comments and contributions from others, provides a nice up-to-date beta snapshot if taken advantage of.
Just to be clear -Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ
1. You mean, should have TESTED from the water. Throwing from the water is totally ineffective.
2. The Pot Shots have to go over the neck, then down the other side, out of sight. When you pull on em, they tend to pull up until they get to the lip, and then stick there. Can be spooky.
3. Pulling on em from down in the pothole, you get a lot of friction going over the edge and across the top. Careful climbing of the rope can be done so the load is kept close to the rock.
4. The problem is, at the top, getting over the lip, the direction of the forces becomes less advantageous. On this particular pothole, there is one mediocre handhold at the top that helps a little.
5. Very nice to do this kinda thing with a deep pool underneath you. If the bags pull try to let go of the rope, so that after you fall into the pool, the sandbags do not clonk you on the head. Pushing out from the wall as you fall is probably a good idea, too.
I was surprised the original party did not bat hook out of this pool. The wall is just less than vertical, and therefore would be relatively straightforward to bathook out of. 'course, we have no idea how deep the pothole really is, should the water and sand be gone.
Tom
After reading AJ's story, I wonder how bomber this stuff really was?Quote:
Originally Posted by seagorn
Dan, not bomber at all. Was definitely more cautious and creative in that canyon than any previous canyons. Also was more scared at that crux pothole than I have been in a LONG time...
Yes Tom, testing the pull of the potshots from the water is what I meant; pretty obvious you can't throw the shots from there.
We did have the shot over the lip, and it pulled up really easily. Didn't think it would hold. Was obviously wrong. Will need to play with shots more, as I mentioned...
Yes, getting over that pothole lip was the issue I was worried about. That's why I tested the potshot pull from where we were; prior to swimming in the pothole. (We tested the depth of the water in the pothole, and it was over 8 feet deep.) I was trying to factor in the added friction, and didn't think it was going to work; which is why we went the high route.
Take care,
A.J.
For those interested, an interesting write up from Ram, Tom and Spidey from last week.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/47755
agreed. we inspected them all. none moved in the least. possible we did miss one between the 2 of us thinking the other had inspected, or just being absent minded (not good here).Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
Hook holes? NEVER bomber. Always require considerable skill, judgement and luck to pass without plummeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
Tom
Assuming we ALL can agree the hook holes are unlikely to move...Quote:
Originally Posted by goofball
Bolts are very, very hard to inspect. That they did not move (were not noticeably loose) is perhaps of some comfort, this is far from a convincing inspection. On the short drops, those were 1/4" split-shank buttonheads. If you're interested in what they look like, here's a link:
http://tinyurl.com/6p7jv5
Those can just suddenly pull out, very scary, you rappel last!
The stud bolts are also suspect, because the steel is not such good stuff. Thankfully, they have not been repeatedly stressed, which might expand corrosion cracks or create fatigue cracks. Yikes! Scary stuff.
While I am usually pretty vehemently anti-bolt, this canyon has me thinking differently. There is little to no spare material in the canyon. COULD use sandbags, but as Ram said, this would involve 2 days, dry suits, and bringing maybe a dozen potshots. Hmmmm..... not TOO bad of an idea...
Tom
well those buttonheads don't look very comforting at all, i have to admit. not being near as seasoned as you guys i really appreciate the point of view. mark has been a serious climber for 20 years plus and i trust his judgment completely as well. maybe his point of reference and comfort zone is different. although he was concerned w/ their age as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratagonia
climbing and bolting on rock is very different than climbing and bolting on sandstone.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofball
The cool thing is, that sitting there for 25 years or so, without being used, they tend to rust into the rock and get more solid. Whereas, a split-shank buttonhead that was in Keyhole and used a LOT, came out with a little wiggling with my fingers.
And yes, next time through, replacing at least a half-dozen bolts is in the cards; especially the buttonheads.
Tom
I think replacing the bolts there is a very good idea. If I do the trip next year, as I'm currently planning on right now; I'll be bringing in bolts to do it. However, as Tom mentioned, placing bolts in sandstone is different. I have only placed two bolts in sandstone, and that was almost 10 years ago. Definitely out of practice, and will be practicing up before heading in there again.
As for the security of those bolts; as Tom mentioned, the bolt not moving is definitely a good sign. However, since most of the bolts are placed directly in the watercourse, they can be getting hit with debris during flash floods. This could damage the bolt, or cause the sandstone it's in to crack/weaken. Not my idea of safe.
Also, some of the nuts were loose on a couple of the bolts, and one bolt pulled completely out with just finger pressure; so there are definitely some that need to be replaced IMHO.
Given the amount of anchor material in that canyon, I feel bolts are a good idea. With the conditions we had, there were several places where we filled and used potshots, built a rock anchor, etc. However, with more water, that option may not be available; and that canyon definitely had signs that it held more water than where we saw it...
Take care,
A.J.