Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

[blake.regalia]

I know it's not good to have nylon on nylon when there's friction involved, but the rope has no reason to slide when rappelling in canyons (except maybe when you retrieve the rope - even then there's no load on it).

Leaving behind a bit of webbing for an anchor is necessary and fine, but the extra cash to buy rings is too much. Are there any cons or inherit dangers to rappelling directly off some backed up anchors made of 2" webbing?

- Blake

[trackrunner]

yes the pull can become tougher, and may stick the rope, if just using webbing a proper setup can minimize this. another issue is once the rope is pulled the webbing needs to be replace the very next time. the load may not be much but it's small enough to put a friction burn in the webbing. it's a one time anchor IMO. so is it really cheaper in the long run if every single anchor has to be replaced each time?

[Slot Machine]

another issue is once the rope is pulled the webbing needs to be replace the very next time. the load may not be much but it's small enough to put a friction burn in the webbing. it's a one time anchor IMO.

Agreed, you might be leaving comprised webbing for the next unsuspecting canyoneer. I am leery of anchors that have no link or any kind of Home Depot chain link.

The rapid links at REI are kind of pricey, Black Diamond sells them for less.
The least expensive way I have found is to purchase them from Tom. You can get a 10 pack of 6mm rapid links for $20. http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=252
Also, I've shopped around and found Omega rings online for less than $3 each if that is what you prefer.

I would save some money by purchasing 1 inch tubular webbing and use the extra money to buy a pack of links. 2 inch tubular webbing is expensive and it's overkill for canyoneering anchors.

Bob

[maarten.1975]

I still remember how Hank discussed with me how to make proper anchors, during the instructional course at ZAC. I happened to ask him as well, 'why the ring'? With an old piece of webbing, he let me put some friction between rope and webbing, by sliding the rope up and down. After a couple of times, the rope sliced through the webbing, like melting it... so easily...... Doing that by myself and seeing it convinced me to invest in the rings :nod:

Remember, it is your own life, your trip-partners lives and possibly many people behind you, who's life may also depend on that piece of webbing... I think small friction burns in the webbing may be difficult to see, giving more risks. So let

[dougr]

but the extra cash to buy rings is too much.

Go to Home Depot, grab a chain, use the employee-only cutting machine, and cut your own links. Done.

[Iceaxe]

I happened to ask him as well, 'why the ring'? With an old piece of webbing, he let me put some friction between rope and webbing, by sliding the rope up and down. After a couple of times, the rope sliced through the webbing, like melting it... so easily......

Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?

[maarten.1975]

Seriously???

Yep, by sliding about 3 or 4 feet of rope up and down in the webbing, it was really easy to make it 'slice through'... So easy, for me it did the trick: convince me to use the ring. What rope and/ or webbing I used, we should ask Hank... Maybe he remembers

[Iceaxe]

but the extra cash to buy rings is too much.

I bet its been 10 years since I last bought quick-links. I have dozens laying around that I collected while cleaning up rappel stations others have rigged poorly. Just last week I pulled 3 out of Elephant Butte, when I re-rigged the first rappel, which is kinda funny because I pulled three off Elephant Butte in Novemeber when I re-rigged the same rappel station.

My 2-cents is.... Those that don't know how to tie knots, tie lots of knots. Those that don't know how to rig or evaluate rappel anchors add anther sling and quick-link.

YMMV

[OwenM]

Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?
Saw this recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LKmjo1yQkZ0#t=1s

[PG Rob]

I have tried this myself and the rope was through under 10 seconds. (6 mm pull cord on 1 inch tubular)

[oldno7]

Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?

I used to demonstrate this to all students. With an 8mm rope it takes less than 30 seconds.

NEVER!!Run nylon on nylon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Audilard]

Go to Home Depot, grab a chain, use the employee-only cutting machine, and cut your own links. Done.

Actually, Home Depot sells the rapid links for half the price of REI or any climbing store.

[spinesnaper]

Actually, Home Depot sells the rapid links for half the price of REI or any climbing store.

Darin

The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

I used to demonstrate this to all students. With an 8mm rope it takes less than 30 seconds.

I'll try this experiment again.

FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.

[Iceaxe]

Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety.

Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.

[oldno7]

Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.

X2 I use 5/16"

[oldno7]

I'll try this experiment again.

FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.

You must anchor the webbing and then "pull" on it while sawing with a rope--it will also ruin a spot on your rope...:mrgreen:

[jman]

Darin

The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

Ken

Hmm....I use them all the time. Most are rated from 1500 lbs to 3000 lbs for a load.

[Slot Machine]

Darin

The difference is quality control. Tom has a 10 pack of Maillon rapides for $20. For $2 a pop, you get a rigorously tested piece of metal. Sure they are cheaper in Home Depot but the links in Home Depot are in no way intended for life and safety. I personally would rather spend the extra buck and a quarter and know that my link was actually tested and is likely to hold my weight. I guess I am just not the risk taker that I once was. YMMV.

Ken

:iagree:

Considering the cost of travel and other gear, I'm a little surprised links are on anyone's financial radar. It's like complaining about the cost of tees if you are a golfer. :roll: Rapid links cost less than 1% of what I spend on canyoneernig overall. I like to gamble on all kinds of things, so I'll just go ahead and bet the extra $1.25 that the "rigorously tested" rapide isn't going to fail.

However, if someone has hard data showing Home Depot Links to be as safe as Maillon rapid links, I'm all about using the less expensive option.

Here is a link to a thread that has some good info on breaking strength and quality control regarding rapid links:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35851-Rappel-Device-Location

Page 2 has the best info.

Bob

[spinesnaper]

Do you really think a 3/8" or 1/4" Home Depot link will fail on rappel?

I use them all the time in both work and play and have yet to see one fail under anything resembling a normal rappeling load.

Shane

No problem. When you come across one of my Maillons, feel free to remove it and replace it with one of your links. :haha::haha:

Ken

[Audilard]

FWIW the Home Depot links actually have weight ratings on them, but I concur, we are talking about pennies in the grand scheme of things. I was just considering the pocketbook of the originator of this thread since he is asking about just using webbing anyways. :mrgreen:

[ratagonia]

FWIW the Home Depot links actually have weight ratings on them, but I concur, we are talking about pennies in the grand scheme of things. I was just considering the pocketbook of the originator of this thread since he is asking about just using webbing anyways. :mrgreen:

It has a weight rating on it.

Do you know what that means? What standard is it tested to? What QA system do they use?

I have a Sharpie, i can put a strength rating on almost anything, and it means about the same.

Tom :moses:

[Branin]

Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?
Did it in a class at SUU taught by a gentleman from Zion. Took about 15 seconds to cut through the webbing. I've since repeated the demonstration for groups I teach (BSA groups mostly) several times and it is usually pretty quick.

[ratagonia]

I'll try this experiment again.

FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.

Ah. Perhaps this is one reason we don't use polypropylene water skiing "rope" for canyoneering. Among other reasons.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

Yep, by sliding about 3 or 4 feet of rope up and down in the webbing, it was really easy to make it 'slice through'... So easy, for me it did the trick: convince me to use the ring. What rope and/ or webbing I used, we should ask Hank... Maybe he remembers

Hi Maarten

We used 1" BW Climb-Spec webbing (used, but in good condition) and can't remember the exact rope, but most likely BW Canyon Pro 8mm. The rope was well-used (clean appearance, but slightly sand-impregnated). Force used was well under bodyweight - just pulling with the arms. Saws through pretty quick. Dirty rope makes a quicker cut, too. If Shane's rope was clean polypropylene, I can see that taking awhile - especially if it was standard hollow-braid or double-braided rope (most PP is). Also, the PP/Nylon coefficient of friction might be lower than Nylon/Nylon. PP seems to be slicker on the skin.

Anyway, it only takes a few minutes to find out for yourself, so give it a try if you're feeling skeptical. Try using bodyweight (safely) for a real eye opener.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.

1/4 - 880# Safe Working Load
5/16 - 1760# Safe Working Load
3/8 - 2200# Safe Working Load

Which means a 1/4 link can lift more than two old school Caddillacs before breaking. And a 5/16 link can lift more than 4 caddies.

The quick-links that come packaged will be marked on the package. The quick-links that are shipped in bulk and than dumped into a bin will be marked on the shipping container or box.

[Brian in SLC]

I used to buy rapid links from the Dollar store, at, uhh, a buck per. 3/8" and 5/16". Some up to 1/2". Crazy cheap.

Yeah, they're made in China.

Recently, I cut one with a pair of bolt cutters, right in the end where the rope would set. Tested a few by pulling a loop of rope through the cut. Folks might be surprised how strong these things are, even with an obvious cut in them. Still well over many body weights...

Also pull tested a gob of them to failure, and, they always snap at the threads, and, don't "unwind". Way above body weight.

YMMV.

I buy the spendy stainless ones now, and, leave them on bolt hangers in combo with a stainless ring (Fixe ring). Spendy set up, but, nothing but the finest for my peeps.

[ratagonia]

FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.

1/4 - 880# Safe Working Load
5/16 - 1760# Safe Working Load
3/8 - 2200# Safe Working Load

Which means a 1/4 link can lift more than two old school Caddillacs before breaking. And a 5/16 link can lift more than 4 caddies.

The quick-links that come packaged will be marked on the package. The quick-links that are shipped in bulk and than dumped into a bin will be marked on the shipping container or box.

"something like"??? That must be one of those high-falutin' engineering terms us civilians don't understand. (/sarcasm) :facepalm1:

SWL is a system for rating industrial strength-related stuff, and the SWL is generally 1/5th of the minimum breaking strength.

The problem here, I repeat, is not that the things don't have a rating. It is that, without a standard, we really have very little idea of what that rating means. We also pretty much know that when properly made, rapid links meet the CE standard etc. etc.; but without knowledge of the Quality Assurance system, we don't really know if those things are "properly made". The CE Standard includes an acceptable QA system in place, and marking with the CE stamp so the end-user can know that. Maillons Rapide rapides meet the CE standard.

That said, a rapide IS a simple system, and steel is an easy to work with and a forgiving material (in this application). So in sizes larger than the 1/4", I feel pretty good about the strength of them. But the 1/4"??? Sonny broke some for me that had a 880# SWL rating, made in China, and they broke at 3000 lbs. 3000 is not 5X 880. The 1/4" Pacific Rim rapides I would stay away from.

Incidentally, if they break at the threads, then they are not "properly made". The mode for failure of this design is to break at the neck-down point above or below the threaded connection. With three full threads engaged, the threaded part should be full strength. If the threads are not "properly engaged", then the device is not "properly made".

Jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Can anyone cite an incidence of rapide failure in a descending/ascending application?

[Brian in SLC]

"Incidentally, if they break at the threads, then they are not "properly made". The mode for failure of this design is to break at the neck-down point above or below the threaded connection. With three full threads engaged, the threaded part should be full strength. If the threads are not "properly engaged", then the device is not "properly made".

I'll have to check my samples, but, that's pretty much were all the ones I didn't cut through broke. Finger tight. Not in the threads, per se, but, right near. "Oh snap". Ha ha.

CE rating still doesn't get you individually loaded tested product.

I'd be curious to know what the actual testing differences are between the spendier CE rated stuff from Europe, and, the pacific rim rapides. My bet is as far as batch testing, and, material testing, they aren't so dissimilar. But, I don't know other than what I've heard from folks in the bizz (word of mouth).

I really think for trade canyons, its nice to step up to the good stuff, for sure.

Much prefer to rappel, and, leave for others to rappel on, a round ring. Really seems to help spread out the wear and tear. Steel is real!

[Iceaxe]

Sonny broke some for me that had a 880# SWL rating, made in China, and they broke at 3000 lbs.

I have no problem rapping from an anchor with a 3000# tested breaking strength. I'll bet 50% of the time that would not be the weakest link in the system.

YMMV.

:cool2:

[hank moon]

FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.


Maillon Rapide brand links have a breaking strength that is 5X the SWL/NWL marked on them. Other brands - who knows? Can you call the mfg in China to find out? :)

I enjoy using life safety gear made by people who know they are making life safety gear and therefore have high quality control. I know for a fact that Chinese mfgs will sometimes make component/material substitutions based solely on a need to make a delivery deadline, w/o due concern for final product quality. I don't buy that level of quality for my life safety stuff. If I did, I'd just buy rope and other basic rappelling stuff at home depot.

[Brian in SLC]

Maillon Rapide brand links have a breaking strength that is 5X the SWL/NWL marked on them. Other brands - who knows? Can you call the mfg in China to find out? :)

I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in? Data, we need data. Not, "its French, so it must be better". Ha ha (said through the nose)!


51811

Cheap Chinese made 3/8" Quick Link marked "SWL 2200 LBS", cut completely through with a bolt cutter, and, load tested with a 9mm rope. Yee haa!

How's that go? "Without data, you're just another a$$hole with an opinion."

YMMV, IMHO, EIEIO.

[ratagonia]

I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in? Data, we need data. Not, "its French, so it must be better". Ha ha (said through the nose)!


+33 (0) 2 51 76 00 35 "Hotline and Technical Support, After Sales".

if you prefer to deal with the U.S. office, that number is: 1-866-621-1062

They can tell you the relevant CE standard the things are built to, but they cannot share a copy of the standard with you as it is copyrighted material. You can buy a copy at the ASTM.

Tom

[hank moon]

I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in?

There's a website for the MR brand and a timely post there:

http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-news.cfm#news59

[oldno7]

Can anyone cite an incidence of rapide failure in a descending/ascending application?

[Brian in SLC]

Check out those cool black rapides!

51818

Sure, they stamp and mark 'em with all kinds of load ratings. So do the Chinese.

I take it they get rod stock in as their main raw material, and, they do some non-destructive testing on it? Oh, and they get that mighty material certification too (ha ha, always worth the paper they're printed on I'm sure). Any idear what NDI they do? Mag particle, UT? All of the rod stock, or, a sample?

Ditto the nuts.

Then they make the rapide. I'm sure they do some type of batch testing. What, they bust a few? They don't apply a load rating to them based on the results, ala BD's 6 sigma program.

They don't individually test each rapide? Not that I can see.

I think the CE and other standards they certify their rapides to require a certain amount of testing and documentation of such.

Does anyone how much actual testing is done per batch?

And...how much more do they do than a Chinese manufacturer? Dunno.

As a component in a rappel anchor, any size at or over 8mm is overkill, even if they're made out of pig iron. Margin has to be pretty high.

Great that folks spend the money for the "good stuff". But, I've busted enough of the cheapies to know, for me, that I'm not worried about them for use in a rappel anchor. Especially given the size (5/16" or bigger) that I use. And, for climbing anchors, I've gone stainless. Of course I'd still leave a plated rapide on a seldom done remote route, to be sure.

Good stuff!

[oldno7]

Just as I thought--after days to dig through the interwebs and find a citation on rapide failure on ascending/descending, it appears there is no documented instance of failure!!

So I view these expensive "maillon" rapides kinda like french truffles, more than likely imported from China and marked up in france.

[restrac2000]

Been interesting to watch and read the discussion.

Mallion rapids are definitely a professional, quality standard. From what I have read and researched their quality control is definitely much higher.

That said, what we do with that information is different. Cost/benefit analysis for canyoneering isn't always the most objective process. Nor does it factor in the relative probability of the types of accidents we are likely to see in the field. Seems most accidents happen from human error not mechanical failure. Especially when we are dealing with complex natural anchors. Is the rapide the component most people worry about on a natural anchor that needs to initially be backed up by meat for the first rappel? Doubt it. Its really only one of a couple components that can be quantified.

On the other hand, how much does it cost the average canyoneer to upgrade to Mallions for the obvious increase in standard? $50 a year at most?

I have never been consistent with my choice of rapides. There were plenty of times I grabbed a couple at the hardware store because I needed some at the last minute. But thats definitely not ideal.

Phillip

[hank moon]

So I view these expensive "maillon" rapides kiqnda like french truffles, more than likely imported from China and marked up in france.

The odiferous Italian truffle, prized by gourmets across the world, is under threat from cheap Chinese fakes, it emerged yesterday.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/1969018/Gourmet-Italian-truffles-under-threat-from-Chinese-imports.html

[Brian in SLC]

Maryland Crab Cakes...yeah, the crabs ain't from Maryland...

Still tastes great, though.




The 11 largest importers of blue swimming crabs in the United States agreed
last week to voluntarily set a minimum size for the crabs harvested in Indonesia
and the Philippines. Those nations are the two largest markets for the
importers, all members of the National Fisheries Institute's Crab Council.


"We're in danger of fishing the population down to the level where it might
take years to recover," said Ed Rhodes, co-director of Phillips' division of
aquaculture and sustainability. "We don't want to get there. Phillips' positions
is we want to make sure we have a sustainable fishery into the future."


The seafood company, which operates restaurants in Maryland and the East
Coast and sells crab cakes and crabmeat across the country, helped develop the
crab fishery in Asia as demand for the product grew.


The company was one of the first to export blue swimming crabmeat to the
United States, and Indonesia and the Philippines now supply about 90 percent of
the crabmeat that the company sells to supermarkets and restaurants and uses to
make "Maryland-style" crab cakes.

[oldno7]

The odiferous Italian truffle, prized by gourmets across the world, is under threat from cheap Chinese fakes, it emerged yesterday.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/1969018/Gourmet-Italian-truffles-under-threat-from-Chinese-imports.html

So there ya have it--"proof" that home depot quick links are just as good as Mallion!!:lol8:

[Rob L]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).

The CE mark will refer to the Standard (EN) to which the product conforms, and that standard may require a certain method (and number) of tests to be conducted, but there is not necessarily any requirement to have any independant certification. Any products sold in Europe for lifting purposes are required to be CE marked. It makes sense that the manufacturer/importer certify the product to other international standards at the same time (for example to UL).

Having said that, a formal quality system is usually a requirement before a company can use the CE mark. Further, the European trading standards bodies are pretty rigorous about dealing with unscrupulous manufacturers and importers, but these unscrupulous companies only usually come to light after some failure of the product.

[hank moon]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).


Hi Rob

While it is true that certain types of PPE do not require independent certification (i.e. Category I, stuff like gardening gloves), Maillons* are Category III PPE (including life safety equipment) and do require such certification. See here for more info (scroll down to blue-box diagram for general overview):

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/mechanical/documents/guidance/personal-protective-equipment/chapter2/index_en.htm


*the ones sold as PPE, that is. Some maillons are PPE, others are not. Those that are not may be self-certified.

[oldno7]

You can only pretend the french aren't affected by the truffle trade:mrgreen:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/french-sniff-at-cheap-truffles-from-china/2006/01/26/1138066921596.html


"In France they are mixed with the local variety and sold at a hundred times the price paid to the farmers who find them."


So as we see here, a precedence has been set by the french.

mixed truffles, mixed mallions--where do they draw the line?:ne_nau:

[hank moon]

mixed truffles, mixed mallions--where do they draw the line?:ne_nau:

Fortunately, suspect rapides are readily identified for culling:

51833

[Brian in SLC]

Reminds me of those Petzl Spirit carabiners that failed the heat treat or some such. Sold for scrap. Ended up at the BD swap being sold by a scrap dealer. Folks wigged out. I think they cut them in half now? Yikes.

Great link to the CE stuff, Hank. There's your cost difference, right there (besides location, labor rates, etc).

Doesn't get you independent or individual testing done on rapides, but, goes pretty far in the direction of "goodness".

[oldno7]

Without any testing(head to head), or notable failures, is it possible to state the maillion is a better product than a variety store quick link?

It certainly could be stated, they should be..

I would love to see a head to head test.

[Brian in SLC]

My bet is rapides, fabricated out of similar materials, would compare favorably.

What you probably don't get, is, constistantly good product, or, an idear if something in your product/process was honked up.

I think you're buying "assurance".

[ratagonia]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).

The CE mark will refer to the Standard (EN) to which the product conforms, and that standard may require a certain method (and number) of tests to be conducted, but there is not necessarily any requirement to have any independant certification. Any products sold in Europe for lifting purposes are required to be CE marked. It makes sense that the manufacturer/importer certify the product to other international standards at the same time (for example to UL).

Having said that, a formal quality system is usually a requirement before a company can use the CE mark. Further, the European trading standards bodies are pretty rigorous about dealing with unscrupulous manufacturers and importers, but these unscrupulous companies only usually come to light after some failure of the product.

My experience at Black Diamond says different.

Step 1 was to have each PRODUCT CERTIFIED VIA testing at an independent lab, and the QA process for that product had to meet certain requirements.

Step 2 was to have the COMPANY CERTIFIED with an acceptable control and QA process, and then (as I remember, always dubious) the company can certify its own products meet the standards. Thus, the company becomes (for instance) ISO 9001.

While this is only slightly different than what you said, I think the difference is significant.

And, of course, fraudsters can always defraud.

Tom

p.s. hmmm, shoulda read Hank's post first. But, as I remember, the process for certifying products is much easier and faster once the company is ISO 9001 certified.

[ratagonia]

Without any testing (head to head), or notable failures, is it possible to state the maillion is a better product than a variety store quick link?

It certainly could be stated, they should be..

I would love to see a head to head test.

Head to head test between what? The worst non-certified Rapid Link? The Average (as if that has meaning)? The ones you get going down to Ace Hardware tomorrow?

I would say that MOST of the non-certified ones are just fine. I also think most of us can examine what we get and sort out the really bad stuff.

The worst non-certified 1/4" rapides I have seen and broken were half the strength of the best/average 1/4" rapides bought at the same wholesaler (Nut and Bolt Supply SLC). I am kinda OCD, but, as a responsible retailer, I stopped selling the NnB Supply Rapides and moved to the Maillons Rapide ones as soon as I received those results.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Reminds me of those Petzl Spirit carabiners that failed the heat treat or some such. Sold for scrap. Ended up at the BD swap being sold by a scrap dealer. Folks wigged out. I think they cut them in half now? Yikes.

Great link to the CE stuff, Hank. There's your cost difference, right there (besides location, labor rates, etc).

Doesn't get you independent or individual testing done on rapides, but, goes pretty far in the direction of "goodness".

Was the same story from Ventura and BD, and BD immediately moved to cutting all discarded and all tested gear, and all prototypes. Big bolt cutters can cut through a carabiner!

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Was the same story from Ventura and BD, and BD immediately moved to cutting all discarded and all tested gear, and all prototypes. Big bolt cutters can cut through a carabiner!

Well....not all prototypes...interesting thread on the stainless crampon breakage from last year. Poor Bill stickin' his head into it...

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1004766/3

[spinesnaper]

Tom

My understanding is that this is all a statistics game anyway. Better processes reduce the incidence of failure, it simply does not eliminate the possibility of failure. Nevertheless, I would rather buy a product that is only likely to fail in one out of 100,000 uses rather than one they may fail in every 1000 uses. That is worth an extra buck. I guess that may effect one's decision to shop at Home Depot or CanyoneeringUSA.

Ken

[Brian in SLC]

My understanding is that this is all a statistics game anyway. Better processes reduce the incidence of failure, it simply does not eliminate the possibility of failure. Nevertheless, I would rather buy a product that is only likely to fail in one out of 100,000 uses rather than one they may fail in every 1000 uses. That is worth an extra buck. I guess that may effect one's decision to shop at Home Depot or CanyoneeringUSA.

Yep.

My bet is its not a cycle amount type issue with any "bad" rapides. Odds are, a "bad" rapide would fall apart just as much when removed from the package as through the first single use. If you can't see a noticable defect, then, odds are it'll be okey dokey. Even when we cut a cheap one completely through with a bolt cutter, the darn thing still took well more than body weight to pull a rope through.

If I was going to attach one to my harness for longtime usage? I'd probably either load test it myself (to a high enough amount) or just buy a darn CE certified nice one.

Odds are...

[Rob L]

Tom & Hank:

Thanks for the update. :2thumbs:

If they are categorised as PPE, then that's the case. I think (it was a long time ago, and EU regs may have changed since then) that "lifting equipment" undergoes a different CE marking regimen.

Rob

[spinesnaper]

Yep.

My bet is its not a cycle amount type issue with any "bad" rapides. Odds are, a "bad" rapide would fall apart just as much when removed from the package as through the first single use. If you can't see a noticable defect, then, odds are it'll be okey dokey. Even when we cut a cheap one completely through with a bolt cutter, the darn thing still took well more than body weight to pull a rope through.

If I was going to attach one to my harness for longtime usage? I'd probably either load test it myself (to a high enough amount) or just buy a darn CE certified nice one.

Odds are...

Which is more likely to fail at body weight, your girth wrapped buried anchor or the rapide at the end of the sling? I am going to guess it will be the anchor by any measure.

Ken

[oldno7]

Lets try this from another angle(for you doubters)
Your in North wash and run out of your prized mallion rapides. You still have several days left on this adventure and canyons to do.

Your options:

Spinesnaper--goes to Hanksville, finds internet connection, sends in order to Tom, waits 2 days for Tom to 2nd day them, goes back to North Wash with maillion rapides, picks up camp,
goes home..

oldno7--goes to the hardware store in Blanding, grabs handful of 5/16" quick links, back to North wash same day, gets in 5 canyons in next 2 days with spinesnapers partners, who don't know whats become of him.....we all drink spinesnapers beer, considering him dead on the road to Hanksville, toast.

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

[spinesnaper]

Lets try this from another angle(for you doubters)
Your in North wash and run out of your prized mallion rapides. You still have several days left on this adventure and canyons to do.

Your options:

Spinesnaper--goes to Hanksville, finds internet connection, sends in order to Tom, waits 2 days for Tom to 2nd day them, goes back to North Wash with maillion rapides, picks up camp,
goes home..

oldno7--goes to the hardware store in Blanding, grabs handful of 5/16" quick links, back to North wash same day, gets in 5 canyons in next 2 days with spinesnapers partners, who don't know whats become of him.....we all drink spinesnapers beer, considering him dead on the road to Hanksville, toast.

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

Oldno7

My philosophy is that all gear in the field is disposable, right down to my leica M9 camera. My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against. Besides, this isn't my first rodeo, I never leave beer in camp.

And don't worry, I am going to use your crappy 5/16 rapide when I come to it in a canyon. It is just not what I buy. I am not saying you shouldn't use them. When you get on rappel "you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?" :haha:

Ken

[hank moon]

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

Yeah, and no-one can prove they're NOT safer, either. So? :mrgreen:

[Bo_Beck]

Oldno7 My philosophy is that all gear in the field is disposable, right down to my leica M9 camera. My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against. Besides, this isn't my first rodeo, I never leave beer in camp.
Ken

I'm with you spinesnaper! Many a "Leaver Biner" has been known to unclip from my harness. No need for a "block". Lets see???? In the 2-3 days of canyoning there with you in N.W., what maybe we have to leave 3-4 "Leaver's" at a cost of $8 ea. for a total of $32. Not bad considering the price of gas up around $3.50. $32's a pretty fair price to pay to not have to waste time and gas! BTW.....I'm with you so wheres the beer?

[oldno7]

Oldno7

My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against.

Ken
o.k.--joking aside for a minute----


I know your somewhat new to canyoneering, but please tell me your not serious here!!!
If you want to rap off your biner, by all means, do so. Just please don't try to block it!!!!!!!!
Do as Bo suggests and go double strand.
We've already lost a California canyoneer to this, you don't want to be the 2nd.

[spinesnaper]

Oldno7

Quite familiar with the mechanics of this. First you need to know that it is improbable that I would be in a situation that I would need to use a carabiner "as a rapide" because I head into canyons with way too much gear including more than enough rapides. Second, if I needed a rapide but did not have it, I would not hesitated to use a much more expensive biner for this purpose. The point you are making here is that carabiners are flat out dangerous for this purpose if it is necessary to block a rope. There are instances where canyoneers have died because the block including the second biner did not block but actually slipped through a large carabiner at the top of the rap.

Admittedly, I was just baiting you.

However, for those who might read this thread and not be aware of these issues, the rapide is the preferred device to pass a rope through at the top of a rap. It reduces friction and it prevents the nylon on nylon cutting that is the actual core of this thread, and of course it is less expensive than an actual carabiner. A wrap ring can also be used, but it takes forethought to deploy a wrap ring; whereas one can easily open the rapide and place it on the sling after the slings are in place. Finally if one does block the rope, a clove hitch on a locking carabiner as the block is too large to physically pass through a rapide. It should be noted that small profile knots can be forced through a larger rapide with tragic consequences. The clove hitch on a locking biner is sufficiently large that this won't happen. If one was out of rapides and needed to set up a rappel, a locking carabiner could of course be substituted for a rapide but in this instance, one's rope management options must change. Depending on the resources at hand, toss and go would avoid the risk of pulling a block through the top biner, which is one of the causes of lethal single strand rappel errors. Use of a pull cord would be precluded and this might affect the length of a rappel one could do. Also ascending the rope would require a double strand technique which is not as simple as a single strand technique. The take home lesson is carry enough Maillon rapides and that way your canyoneering buddies won't drink all your beer while you are waiting for Tom to Fedex more rapides to you in the Swell.:nono:

Ken

[oldno7]

Ahh-Well Done then Spine.

I don't mind being baited if it has potential for learning.:2thumbs:

By the way--It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out, loses their beer in camp or free falls from a ledge 300' while blocking a biner with a biner......

[spinesnaper]

Ahh-Well Done then Spine.

I don't mind being baited if it has potential for learning.:2thumbs:

By the way--It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out, loses their beer in camp or free falls from a ledge 300' while blocking a biner with a biner......

Yes, bottom line: bring plenty of rapides and plenty of beer. And no, we are not suggesting drinking and caynoneering at the same time. The brews are for carbo loading after the event:haha:

[Sandstone Addiction]

dsr70 in one of the first posts mentioned using chain link--what are the pros and cons?

[Rob L]

dsr70 in one of the first posts mentioned using chain link--what are the pros and cons?

Pros: They're cheap.

Do your own QA.

Buy a 20-link 1/4 " or 3/8 " chain of your choice; you'll end up with 10 useful links. Then proof-load these 10 links to five-times your body weight (quite easy with a fork-lift truck at your friendly neighbourhood steel yard). Test one of the ten to 10-times (or to destruction). You will end up with nine proof-loaded links. Et voila!

Cons: You can only use these for your own use; you cannot sell them.

[Rob L]

Edit: You could proof-load the whole 20 links in one fell swoop before separating the links...as they say, the weakest link...etc etc

[ratagonia]

Edit: You could proof-load the whole 20 links in one fell swoop before separating the links...as they say, the weakest link...etc etc

Or, buy the proof-tested chain. Usually gold in color, and somewhat more expensive.

The big problem is the internal size. If you are using thin canyoneering-type ropes, not much of a problem. Please do not leave them on anchors in Zion, as many people here use fat, wasted climbing ropes = 12mm ==> get stuck in those things.

Tom

[schrods]

Interesting post. Thought I'd let you guys know CAMP sells quick links cheaper than Home Depot. 8mm 40kN/10kN zinc plated for $1.38/per (when you actually hit the "BUY NOW" link and enter quantity in your cart). And no, I'm not promoting/advertising their product. I just went through this whole debate myself 2 months ago and decided to go with "professional stuff". I feel much better, and so does my tiny wallet.

[schrods]

Here's the link: camp-usa.com/products/carabiners/oval-quick-links-zinc.asp

[ratagonia]

Here's the link: camp-usa.com/products/carabiners/oval-quick-links-zinc.asp

Did you actually order and receive them at that price? Because that is the wholesale price, and is an error on their website, or you wandered into the wholesale part of their website... :facepalm1:

Tom

[schrods]

Like i said, using that link and hitting the "BUY NOW" button, that's the price I paid. I only ordered 10.

[spinesnaper]

Guess they fixed that.:facepalm1: When I put in that URL, the price comes to $2.20 per 10 mm link.

Ken

[schrods]

But they advertise the 10mm price at $4.00...

[spinesnaper]

Ok, now I feel really bad because I still didn't order any.:cry1:

[Summit2Sea]

When rappelling off of a webbing anchor with no rapide or rap ring, rig a retrievable (cem, macrame etc.)... No need to pull the length of the rappel through the anchor/webbing...

[rick t]

I have for years been using chain link, ("ricks links") the good 3/8 inch galvanized stuff @ home depot comes out to about $.40 a link, after you cut off every other one. Best to cut off a 2 or 3 ft section, take it up to the register and pay for it, keep the receipt in your pocket, and then go back to the cutter and chop every other link. The orange aprons are going to be on you quick enough. The SWL btw is 5400 or 5600 lbs, with no screw to jam or lock, beats the hell out of quick links, if you're setting the anchor from scratch, and not just replacing links on an existing sling. Lots of room for a 9.2, the largest rope i use.

[myfingersaresore]

I went looking for info on the downsides of rappelling directly off webbing; this thread gave me what I needed. Two main takeaways:

1. I'd probably live thru the rappel, maybe stick a rope, but leave a time bomb behind for the next, trusting climber.

B. Never leave your beer in camp.

Thanks All, Rick

[ratagonia]

I went looking for info on the downsides of rappelling directly off webbing; this thread gave me what I needed. Two main takeaways:

1. I'd probably live thru the rappel, maybe stick a rope, but leave a time bomb behind for the next, trusting climber.

B. Never leave your beer in camp.

Thanks All, Rick

Ha!

and welcome to the Bog, Senor Rick.

Tom :moses: