smiling cricket

[goofball]

Wow.

For a number of reasons - Physically and mentally taxing, beautiful, and lengthy. Closest comparison to its character I can make is segers hole. But segers was brim full when i went. This was nearly empty, and after a while this just became a job and I hate working.

We awoke in the morning and headed up the waterpocket fold on the north rim side to gain access and found a nice rap in just above the start of the main narrows. ~180’ down a vertical wall to a top bench above the watercourse.

that liiiitle speck top left is a people.

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/29668/2099256490054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2099256490054335321IKfWpK)


Just above there is a short slot section that gives one a mini mini mini taste of what their in for.

http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/38190/2413541110054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2413541110054335321UJtqNn)


At our first rap (of ~12 or more I guess) we saw a bolt to confirm this has seen other fools as well. I would love to talk to whoever did this for the first time. Their drawers had to have been un-stainable once out.

So after our 1st canyon rap it was ~ .75 miles of potholes. At least 20-30 I am sure (probably more like 40). And some BIG potholes. Almost all were a mix of large to small cobblestones and sand. And all but 1 or 2 were sloped slightly away from their bottom, those couple which overhang are by-passable. Some you have to rap or partner assist into. Others are dc’s. One had a cool arch in its bottom. 90% or more require partner assist exits. Mostly we did a knee-to-shoulder stand. One required a potshot. Some we were able to avoid, most w/ little to no cause for alarm. More on that later. They start out mild enough, but grow up fast. The nature of the upper canyon ph’s are water inputs down a curving chute, swirls around and scours out, then output right beside its input.

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/36119/2073104590054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2073104590054335321fTAxGt)

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/8893/2793944460054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2793944460054335321UFaDKJ)

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/43547/2177191110054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2177191110054335321MgChzH)


The lower canyon the water poured over into the ph and then just seems to slosh out the far side. The lower canyon ph’s mostly had diameters ~ equal to their depth. And their diameter was usually ~ 15’. The upper canyon ph’s were a little shallower though. Also had an open section about .5 way down where we bypassed a ph section of 5 or 6.

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/16899/2825074200054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2825074200054335321nWNbtO)


Going was sloooow. just after a long straight section past the open section we knew we weren’t getting out that day and bivied. Climbed up a side drainage and slept on flat, soft sand for that night. Not much wood to burn, never mind we had no lighter, but we kept warm enough to not shiver.

looking up canyon from where we bivied.

http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/43640/2626591360054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2626591360054335321NYHCwk)


Next morning it was back at it ! More ph’s. After more ph’s. After yet more ph’s. O my god why do they not end !?! I am only a fan of ph’s when they are brim full and I can jump in and walk or flop out. These were bone dry or knee to waist deep. God it was exhausting ! And they keep getting bigger.

And then, the belly drop. Crap. That is big. The crux of the canyon, a ph ~40’ diameter by 50’ deep measuring from the water level up. Many dirty words, a few bad thoughts, and then we see it. This is especially where I want to hug and kiss the pioneering party. Especially as for the lead it is an unprotected job. It was a bypass route. Chimney up 20’ to the 1st of a series of hook holes, then 10-15’ of aid climbing on talons and etriers to skinny unprotected ledges 10’ below and 10’ beside a glowingly beautiful bolt and hanger. Penalty points are high to move to it but it is not a hard move for those used to climbing. And me not being a practiced climber I found it nerve wracking, but once the move was made (w/ some “shits” and “****s” thrown in for good measure) it felt solid. Now clip in ! *whew* Once clipped in descend and traverse to another glowingly beautiful bolt and hanger ~20’ over and 10’ below. Then a little pendulum action to swing over to the far lip. Yay ! Then ferry the rest over. Or slowly peck hook holes and etrier out from the bottom.

After that it was just more big, exhausting, but very manageable ph’s. Until... Yep. ANOTHER belly drop. Not near as big though. A very skinny ph, ~20’ deep, 10’ diameter, but with a nasty overhanging far lip. A potshot may have worked here as well, conditions looked favorable I believe, but overhanging… But here there is an easy to gain bypass rap up on a ledge above. After that more of the same until we see… trees ! o’ glorious trees ! We’ve reached the nasty bushwhack out. A 20’ skinny curving chute bought us to the final bolt for a 100’ drop to the bottom. O sweet liberty !

We missed a combo rap - just barely ! But a miss is a miss. We couldn’t understand why a couple obvious rappels weren’t bolted where most others were. We also placed 3 bolts. One where there was a bolt before (2 bolts actually) so we re-utilized a hole. Another just above the final rap as that curving chute down to a barely ledge where the final bolt was placed was not visible to view from the top and had high penalty points for any error made, as well as night was approaching and hunting for a clean anchor was last on our list after 2 full days in this leviathan. And one bolt where we missed the combo rap. I was good w/ hooking, but my partner was none to keen on it so what do I care. Made him feel safer. The other 2 I was totally on board. Another error was dropping hangers and having to rap off the final bolt placed by girth hitching it not fully driven in. was more than good enough to get the 20’ or so down the curvy chute to the original bolt placed. We weren’t 100% clean.

So to recap – this is a beautiful canyon, challenging to the max between time abd sheer energy required and one particularly nasty ph problem. That crux ph is a puckerer, but the rest were readily overcome w/ some thought, effort, and teamwork. Someone better be a good climber w/ exposure tolerance for this. Rappels were all straightforward, a mix of bolted and built on the spot. Anchor material is pretty readily available throughout most of the canyon. it took us 2 full days but could be done a little faster knowing what is in store. Never would trying to do it in 1 day be viable in my mind. UNLESS it were brim full, even then it could be a long day. And if the water were too high to stand in bottoms, but too low to flop out, then Houston, we have a problem, just like some other canyons out there. Brim full I would go do this in a heartbeat. Good luck knowing when that would be though ! And that crux ph, if it weren’t full that would still be a huge obstacle. We wondered if that canyon ever does get full from head to mouth all at once. It’ll take a lot of water.

My camera went swimming 1st thing day 2, so no pics past the 1st drop of that day. Too bad too, cause them were something to see. Especially the belly dropping crux. God I hope to never ever ever ever never ever see one like that again. Not as an obstacle to have to pass anyway.

couple more pics of the beasts belly

http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/8482/2748334770054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2748334770054335321uBnsgQ)

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/22144/2562181240054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2562181240054335321wHPmen)

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/43718/2553752570054335321S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2553752570054335321cyOwBH)


full pics - http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/563784752IzQbWd

[stefan]

outstanding!

[denaliguide]

fantastic!

[rockgremlin]

Amazing! For the longest time there I was used to the Capital Reef area not having hardly anything good in the way of slots...then Pandora's was unleashed...and now this bastard! Wow that's impressive!

[nat]

Wow, very impressive :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

The crux pothole sounds amazing! Sounds like something out of a science fiction canyoneering story. From your website, it was hinted as in the Halls Creek area?

Nat

[goofball]

my body still does not think it was too wowmazatasticstanding. in fact, my body is still pretty pissed at me for doing this. hands are still like sandpaper. plus i had some allergy attack kick me in the face so i was not at 100% for all this. barely at 50%. i owe my partner a big thanks for not killing me once we got out. i slowed us down.

the waterpocket fold has many canyons cutting thru it along halls creek. i've scouted 4 others besides this one, but given their location and length of time required to access them, they aren't going to be visited much but by the truly fanatic or thrill seeking. theses aren't easy car to car loops in day. and they are not casual canyons period.

for those who like names and descent history my partner said he has friends or contacts in the allen and turville (sp?) entourages and is gonna ask about these. the bolts were .25" and "star driven" (?) which looked just like a big ass nail to me.

** in talking to my partner he thought the crux ph was only ~30' diameter and 40' deep. we tossed a potshot across and it barely cleared the far, and FLAT, lip. i still think it was bigger. maybe my belly drop response at the time influences my memory. **

[stefan]

it's quite the story, albeit quite dangerous. pulling the trigger in these slot canyons often seems to me like dropping onto a 38

[FOX]

Absolutely amazing!

[seagorn]

As the partner on this harrowing descent of 'Smiling Cricket' I would just like to add that this is a beautiful canyon despite the difficulties we encountered. It would be stellar after lots of rain. Many of the potholes would be of the 'jump-in/slide-in" type. The crux pothole is so enormous that it would always have to be bypassed using the scary pendelum described in the TR, imho. Interesting, some of the PHs were full of water, some had very low water, and most bone-dry. But the big keeper clearly had water over 6 ft deep. Thus, we could not ascend the far wall using a drill and hooks. Although getting to the two high bypass bolts was scary, the hook holes placed by the pioneering party were bomber, as were the 1/4 inch bolts. Based on the size/style of the bolts and the condition of the webbing, I would guess they were placed more than 15 years ago...

This canyon required considerable difficult, exposed free climbing. Having my Sportiva canyoneering shoes with sticky rubber is what made escaping several potholes (esp the crux!) possible. I am a climber of 25 years and found some of the moves challenging...

All in all, a terrifying, rewarding experience. I think I'll be doing established canyons for awhile however =)

[Jaxx]

Very nice read. Glad you guys ended up ok.
Like Stephan I wonder if you will explore more canyons with just 2? Will you stock other gear now wishing you had it in the canyon? What were you glad you had?

[seagorn]

Very nice read. Glad you guys ended up ok.
Like Stephan I wonder if you will explore more canyons with just 2? Will you stock other gear now wishing you had it in the canyon? What were you glad you had?

No. We both agree that we will not be descending undescribed canyons any time soon. That said, in this case we both felt comfortable with the decision to descend this canyon for a few reasons. First, it had been scouted (rim-walked) by my partner months before, so we knew the access hike in/hike out, and how long the slot section would be. Second, the two adjacent canyons of similar length and shape had been recently descended by associates. They reported that the canyons had been bolted and presented no significant difficulties. We assumed (falsely!) that this third canyon would be similar. Third, we had a great weather window, and knew there had been rain a week before so the potholes had a chance of being filled. Finally, we were a strong team, despite being only two, given our experience, my climbing skills, and the gear we brought in with us (potshots, many hooks, bolt kit, lots of webbing, 200 ft rope/200 ft pull cord, neoprene tops).

While we made it out safely, we have to count ourselves lucky given the conditions of the canyon and the sudden illness that befell my partner. I would like to return with a larger team and after sigificant rain to do all three of the slots in this area (Smiling Cricket, Happy Dog, Baboon Laughs). What a fantastic area to camp/expore either way!

[goofball]

yah, seagorn, you explain it !

let dad wag his finger at someone else, i'm tired of bein g "tsk-tsk'd"

:lol8:

i knew this canyon was longer and had a gentler slope head to mouth and comjectured that ='d (possibly) less difficultys to encounter. and after hearing reports from the other 2 i shared and then seeing this one w/ a bolt before commitment, my attitude is - if its BEEN done, it can BE done. no more solo jumps for sure, but like minded people who are confident and competent i'd love to jump w/ on occasion. and in the end the only way to know is to go, having seen as much as possible from prior scouting and approach this time. i guess my tolerance for risk is abnormally high. i like to say that looking back i repent, it was foolish, i was wrong... but really i don't feel it. fear is something i don't feel easily. and when it does come, it fades fast and anger, or "ok, what do i DO now" replaces it. i know i am abnormal.

one thing i know someone would have definitley done different is BRING A BIVY BAG/BLANKET. :mrgreen: i mentioned it several times before going, just in case. some people just do not listen :lol8:

:five:

[goofball]

i imagine you've had some time to think about your trip. i am wondering how you guys would have perceived the canyon had it not been bolted and had the difficult crux solution not been embedded in the canyon wall for you to see and work through. and whether most of the bolts throughout the canyon were necessary? you indicated that there was plenty of anchor building materials around.

moreover i just can't help but wonder how difficult you guys expected the canyon to be a priori (scouting?). it sounds like in the end you felt most of it was manageable, but like the infamous sandthrax, it just takes one obstacle to make an extreme difference.

i'd like to hear more if you're willing to share.

guess i'm a glutton for finger wagging...

had that 1st mandatory drop, point of no return NOT been bolted, i was prepared to fix a rope, go to the next, and see. knowing that the other 2 neighbors were fairly tame, and seeing this one from the start in keeper mode, did give reason for assesment. my memory is emotional, not concrete, so i can't remember if the bolts were mostly needed or unnecessary. natural anchor material was available thru most of the canyon, even if it meant time and labor to ferry it. i've never been accused of finesse or "points for style", as well as this being an unknown, so speed was more on our mind. as much as possible since by 3/4 thru day 1 my allergies had sapped me. but in the end that worked perfect, had we been faster we may have past our bivy point much earlier in the day and had a very uncomfy and scarier night. and as before the only way to know is to go unless you can see all from the rim and have 100% certainty of obstacles. here we had one really nasty one, other wise it was just a physically demanding canyon w/ obstacles that can be thought out and overcome readily w/ time and/or thought. had the bypass not been there ? maybe we still would be ? but we would have had to do something.

these and the above are my thoughts. others will most certainly vary. i am fine w/ the thoughts in my head and do not lose sleep or feel ashamed over them. i do cry inside though that it means i may never get to canyon w/ this person or that person.



:roflol:

oh my god ! i almost, almost kept a straight face there ! *whew* oh my...

[stefan]

hi jason,

finger waggin'? no, not the intentions of my post ... i think it's no kidding that you received a fair share

i read your report and voiced worries that were running through my head while reading your TR, which only reveals a little of your exploration and experience. i was naturally interested in understanding more.




and as before the only way to know is to go unless you can see all from the rim and have 100% certainty of obstacles.

true, but there are many ways of "going" ... no?

[nat]

Great name "smiling cricket"! Sounds almost Buddist or something :haha: "Happy Dog" is pretty cool too. I'd like to pick your guys brains on a couple of things. Is the crux pothole really 50 ft deep from water level to lip?! I still can't get over that. Also, if I understand correctly, on the hook traverse and climb to the first bolt, you were 50-70 ft above the bottom of the pothole? If the traverse didn't work for some reason, would it be possible (with a drill) to hook your way out at the end of the pothole?

Great job! :hail2thechief:

Nat

[Iceaxe]

Nice job Goof.... and thanks for the awesome TR and pictures.....

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

If the traverse didn't work for some reason, would it be possible (with a drill) to hook your way out at the end of the pothole?

I think he already answered that....


Then a little pendulum action to swing over to the far lip. Yay ! Then ferry the rest over. Or slowly peck hook holes and etrier out from the bottom.

:rockon:

[Scott Card]

Great Story!!!! :2thumbs: Um.... if you ever need some fellers to make up a team in this canyon again, I know a couple of good climbers and two older guys who tag along who would go in a heart beat. :nod: Great photos and too bad about the camera. I would really like to see the beast (crux pothole) This sounds like a nasty hike if you have to do it as an overnighter. Heavy packs in and out of pot holes? Wait, sounds like Heaps but without the water. I do love the pot holes and partner assist stuff. Thanks for the report.

[nat]

If the traverse didn't work for some reason, would it be possible (with a drill) to hook your way out at the end of the pothole?

I think he already answered that....

:rockon:

Yes, but this was contradicted by seagorn:

"But the big keeper clearly had water over 6 ft deep. Thus, we could not ascend the far wall using a drill and hooks."

Nat

[trackrunner]

If the traverse didn't work for some reason, would it be possible (with a drill) to hook your way out at the end of the pothole?

I think he already answered that....

:rockon:

Yes, but this was contradicted by seagorn:

"But the big keeper clearly had water over 6 ft deep. Thus, we could not ascend the far wall using a drill and hooks."

Nat
He could explain it better but if I understand correctly drilling holes while floating will push you off the wall. some one else has to hold you up against the wall so you don't float away.

[Scott P]

Very nice. The Waterpocket Fold is awesome. :2thumbs:

[goofball]

hi jason,

finger waggin'? no, not the intentions of my post ... i think it's no kidding that you received a fair share

i read your report and voiced worries that were running through my head while reading your TR, which only reveals a little of your exploration and experience. i was naturally interested in understanding more.




and as before the only way to know is to go unless you can see all from the rim and have 100% certainty of obstacles.

true, but there are many ways of "going" ... no?

that was jason dry humor tongue in cheek. and yeah, nk got me some shit.

yep, there's many ways of going, but the one that really gets me going is actually going. personality defect i suspect. excitement junkie in that way. unlike climbing a wall it is not all spread out before me. it twists and turns and changes and is always a surprise. a knife edge between fear and excitement, one driving the other and vice versa. and i get just as much out of it after the fact. someteimes during, all i want is out, and when does it end and crap why am i knocking myself out doing this. but the ebb and flow of the senses is like a narcotic. best one i've ever known. and its legal ! whether its some established beta'd route or not don't matter. its the unknown and the act of self discovery.

and experience wise, i got out a LOT when we lived in bluff, not so much the last 2 years in slc, and am able to get out a lot here now again. but before bluff i knew nothing of canyoneering. but my approach to everything is just because i don't know how to do it yet doesn't mean its hard. so i go. and i hate to start at the bottom, the fun stuff is up top. thats where the people around me were and i liked the view.

NAT -

seagorn thinks it was only about 30' diameter, but i am pretty sure it was near 50' deep. honestly, i am not good w/ judging distances, so 50 may be high. but it was more than 30' no doubt. maybe it was only 40' deep. to me, that is still deep. i stand in my room and look thru the doorway to approximate the distances and perspectives, and the 20' to the far wall seems close compared to the far lip of that pothole. but i know a sure way you could find out for certain !

he thought the water was too deep to stand in, and that it was undercut some at the very bottom. i honestly could not see thru the water enough to make any judgement call on its ultimate depth or shape. what i saw was a wall of near vertical, but slight outward slope rising from the water line. if footing were sure to start the pecking out i am certain it would only be a matter of time. if footing ain't sure, then some support would be needed. the sandstone can be pecked w/ a drill bit just deep enough for a talon pretty quick, but as you knwo better than i you still have to have some solid footing. and if floating then exposure and exhaustion could creep up. and if it is undercut at its very bottom ? how undercut it is will determine how hard the process will be i guess. build a ramp or cairn to gain some height if possible if that is the case. or stack packs. or human triangle, or ???

[AJ]

I'm always game for an exploration; and/or if you want to run that canyon again (or the others in the area.) Sounds like a blast!

Take care,
A.J.

[nat]

NAT -

seagorn thinks it was only about 30' diameter, but i am pretty sure it was near 50' deep.

he thought the water was too deep to stand in, and that it was undercut some at the very bottom.


Jason, thanks for the detailed response. I'll bet those bolts on that traverse were a real beautiful sight to see! :haha:

Nat

[FOX]

whether its some established beta'd route or not don't matter. its the unknown and the act of self discovery.


Amen to that one brother! :2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

whether its some established beta'd route or not don't matter. its the unknown and the act of self discovery.


Amen to that one brother! :2thumbs:

X 2 :nod:

[shaggy125]

I'd be interested in a trip down there this fall or next spring (I'll be in Alaska from 9/25 - 10/14 so fall might be tough for me). I was one of the "associates" that did the two canyons next to this one. Nat? AJ? Jason? anyone interested let me know. They are very remote and it is a 10+ mile pack in to set up basecamp so not a trip for everyone.

[nat]

I'd be interested in a trip down there this fall or next spring (I'll be in Alaska from 9/25 - 10/14 so fall might be tough for me). I was one of the "associates" that did the two canyons next to this one. Nat? AJ? Jason? anyone interested let me know. They are very remote and it is a 10+ mile pack in to set up basecamp so not a trip for everyone.

I'm definitely interested. All three sound really great. :rockon:

Nat

[Iceaxe]

for those who like names and descent history my partner said he has friends or contacts in the allen and turville (sp?) entourages and is gonna ask about these. the bolts were .25" and "star driven" (?) which looked just like a big ass nail to me.

If you come up with the history of these canyons please post it...

If I had to guess... I'd put my money on the Stardryvin bolts belonging to Mike Bogart and/or Dennis Turville.

:cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

sick goof. just sick. nice work.

I'd be game to see the fold in October. I should be back on the plateau by Oct 15th.

AJ, don't forget the beer... :roflol:

[goofball]

for those interested in going thru i am game again sometime. definitley spring or fall ! i'd rather go when cooler and carry a wetsuit than make that hike in the heat. and like shaggy said it is a 10 mile approach, so a whole day in and a whole day out. coming from the lake would cut maybe 4 miles off, but i don't know what those hiking conditions would be like. still would be near a day to hike in and same out, plus the cost of a boat. wanted to do all 3 this time but smiling cricket alone was worth it. and i never mind sharing beta so if you would like some let me know. seagorn marked some approach points in teh gps so that wiould make it a little easier. the approach is tiresome and the fold there is pretty warped. it is not a straight line and it could be easy to pick the wrong line and spend longer than necessary.

[ratagonia]

for those who like names and descent history my partner said he has friends or contacts in the allen and turville (sp?) entourages and is gonna ask about these. the bolts were .25" and "star driven" (?) which looked just like a big ass nail to me.

If you come up with the history of these canyons please post it...

If I had to guess... I'd put my money on the Stardryvin bolts belonging to Mike Bogart and/or Dennis Turville.

:cool2:

Turville seems to have used those 5/16" or 3/8" studs, as we see in Kolob and several other canyons. The two canyons next door had those kind of bolts, with old Leeper and SMC hangers. Star Dryvins I think are someone else's handywork.

Tom

[AJ]

I'd be game; and yes, I'd bring beer for you Carpey...

Would love to hear what you are thinking, and when. For me, the more lead time, the better...

Take care,
A.J.

[shaggy125]

Would love to hear what you are thinking, and when. For me, the more lead time, the better...

A.J.

If I do them this fall it would be anywhere between Oct. 23rd - 29th. Next spring is more likely though. Somewhere between March - May.

[nat]

Would love to hear what you are thinking, and when. For me, the more lead time, the better...

A.J.

If I do them this fall it would be anywhere between Oct. 23rd - 29th. Next spring is more likely though. Somewhere between March - May.

I can do October 23-27th (especially if we can drive down on the eve of the 22nd). In the fall, I teach only Tuesday and Thursday. By the way Eric, what are you doing in Alaska? Canyoneering?

Nat

[shaggy125]

I can drive down the evening of the 22nd, I work the night of the 21st and would just need 4 or 5 hours of sleep on the 22nd. No canyoneering in Alaska, unless Dan finds something for us :haha: . I am flying out on Dan's (CarpeyBiggs) last day of driving his tour bus and then taking three weeks to drive around and then home, making stops in the Yukon, Jasper, Banff, Glacier, Yellowstone, etc... Probably mostly just hiking and sightseeing, oh and learning how to take better pictures. Hopefully Dan and I don't hate each other after spending three weeks crammed in the same car together :lol8:

[nat]

I can drive down the evening of the 22nd, I work the night of the 21st and would just need 4 or 5 hours of sleep on the 22nd. No canyoneering in Alaska, unless Dan finds something for us :haha: . I am flying out on Dan's (CarpeyBiggs) last day of driving his tour bus and then taking three weeks to drive around and then home, making stops in the Yukon, Jasper, Banff, Glacier, Yellowstone, etc... Probably mostly just hiking and sightseeing, oh and learning how to take better pictures. Hopefully Dan and I don't hate each other after spending three weeks crammed in the same car together :lol8:

Sounds like a great trip up north! Except for the $4-$5 per gallon of gasoline. If you and Dan survive three weeks together up there, I'm sure a few days on Halls creek will be OK :haha: Let's keep in touch about the dates; sounds like it could work. With an early start hiking on Friday morning, maybe could do Baboon the same day?

Nat

[shaggy125]

Sounds like a great trip up north! Except for the $4-$5 per gallon of gasoline. If you and Dan survive three weeks together up there, I'm sure a few days on Halls creek will be OK :haha: Let's keep in touch about the dates; sounds like it could work. With an early start hiking on Friday morning, maybe could do Baboon the same day?

Nat

I think the gas prices are why Carpey is willing to let me come along, we will have three people to split gas, so that should help. I just need to work some overtime and save my pennies. It would be a monster day, plus end of October it will be dark around 7:00, but yea, if we started really early in the morning we could knock out Baboon before dark, it's pretty short and easy (unless something in there changes of course).

[AJ]

I could make that timeframe work. October 30th is my birthday, and I usually get out for some canyons during that timeframe. I could celebrate a week early. ;)

I could drive out the eve/night of 10/21 or 10/22, and could canyoneer through mid-day 27th or 28th (it's a long drive back for me...)

I'm pretty sure I could find one or (very likely) two others to join me as well. (Would like to have 2-3 people total to split drive time and gas.) Let me know.

So, in summary, if you want to make it happen; plan for three of us from Colorado...

Take care,
A.J.

[abirken]

I could make that timeframe work. October 30th is my birthday, and I usually get out for some canyons during that timeframe. I could celebrate a week early. ;)

I could drive out the eve/night of 10/21 or 10/22, and could canyoneer through mid-day 27th or 28th (it's a long drive back for me...)

I'm pretty sure I could find one or (very likely) two others to join me as well. (Would like to have 2-3 people total to split drive time and gas.) Let me know.

So, in summary, if you want to make it happen; plan for three of us from Colorado...

Take care,
A.J.

I'm in...........I could plan this out definately and would be interested in more then just a couple days. I have to redeem my status as NOOB and step it up a notch. :lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I think the gas prices are why Carpey is willing to let me come along, we will have three people to split gas, so that should help. I just need to work some overtime and save my pennies. It would be a monster day, plus end of October it will be dark around 7:00, but yea, if we started really early in the morning we could knock out Baboon before dark, it's pretty short and easy (unless something in there changes of course).

At the rate things are going, we're gonna have to find a 4th person to pay the 7.50 a gallon across the Yukon... Or buy a motorcycle, dumb and dumber style. :five:

[AJ]

Sounds like we have enough interest; and seems like Oct 23 - 27 would work. Is this going to go? (I'm starting to plan out my October, so just want to know...)

Take care,
A.J.

[shaggy125]

I can drive down the evening of the 22nd and drive back either the 27th or 28th. I'm game.

[nat]

I can drive down the evening of the 22nd and drive back either the 27th or 28th. I'm game.

I realize that I screwed up the dates on a previous post. I teach Tuesdays and Thursdays. I could drive down on the afternoon of the 23rd, and would have to hike out on the 27th. It sounds like you guys have a day or two more than I. One possibility: if you all want to drive down on the 22nd , maybe you could do one of the easier canyons on the 23rd and I could meet you on the afternoon of the 23rd (down in Halls Creek) and we could do Smilling Cricket the following day (or following 2 days). If that doesn't work with you guys that's fine, though I would really like to do Smiling Cricket with everyone.

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

[ratagonia]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

And, of course, need I suggest it? The true challenge would be to do it clean.

Tom

[nat]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

And, of course, need I suggest it? The true challenge would be to do it clean.

Tom

I'm not a purist so I'd be happy just to do it, but that would be an interesting challenge. Got any ideas Tom, for sending the 50ft deep, 50ft wide pothole without the bolts for the pendulum?

Nat

[goofball]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

i wonder if it was full ? otherwise solving all the problems and drilling all the bolts had to suck up some time. those people were definitely good. we didn;t gert a sunrise or earlier start, and were relaxing, so maybe that held us up more ? as well as my allergies killing me and slowing me down even more. i also like their name MUCH better. when i read "poe canyon" i thought, well duh, that makes perfect sense.

and i thought it was 40' wide x 50' deep. the diameter may be exagerated, but me n mark r still 100% sure it was a good 30' diameter. so don't call me a liar if it turns out smaller. we were shell shocked ! and i firmly believe it is ~50' deep from solid bottom to lip.

[sparker1]

Interesting thread, even for a non-canyoneer. Hope you all get together for a full attack on this one in the fall.

By the way, shaggy and carpey, some advice for your return from Alaska. use the Cassiar Highway and stop off in Hyder. In the summer, there are lots of bears there and a viewing stand that puts you right on top of them. Even if there are no bears at the time you will be there, some beautiful glaciers will be there and you get a great view of them. In Terrace, BC, they have white Black Bears (mutants), if you can find one. This entire route back to Jasper is very scenic.

[ratagonia]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

And, of course, need I suggest it? The true challenge would be to do it clean.

Tom

I'm not a purist so I'd be happy just to do it, but that would be an interesting challenge. Got any ideas Tom, for sending the 50ft deep, 50ft wide pothole without the bolts for the pendulum?

Nat

I'm thinking multiple potshots. A throw that far can't have much weight in it, so you have to set up multiple fairly light potshots for the toss. Which means bringing 4 - 6 potshots, AND enough ropes to have ends for them all. 6mm pull cord would do. Take all 4 together, and put a bachman knot on em.

But... much, MUCH better in this situation if there is enough water to make a fall in acceptable. Also have to consider what the lip looks like. Would be a bummer to prusik up that far, then not be able to get over the lip without losing the grip on your potshot anchor.

Note: natural anchor games - fun. But not worth risking your life over.

Careful judgment should be exercised, which the cool, calm, experienced and skilled Nat I know can apply well. A belay from above might be useful, if the geometry works. Maybe this storm dumped some water in there, or it will be a rainy season and there will be a bit more water in there...

Tom

[nat]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

And, of course, need I suggest it? The true challenge would be to do it clean.

Tom

I'm not a purist so I'd be happy just to do it, but that would be an interesting challenge. Got any ideas Tom, for sending the 50ft deep, 50ft wide pothole without the bolts for the pendulum?

Nat

I'm thinking multiple potshots. A throw that far can't have much weight in it, so you have to set up multiple fairly light potshots for the toss. Which means bringing 4 - 6 potshots, AND enough ropes to have ends for them all. 6mm pull cord would do. Take all 4 together, and put a bachman knot on em.

But... much, MUCH better in this situation if there is enough water to make a fall in acceptable. Also have to consider what the lip looks like. Would be a bummer to prusik up that far, then not be able to get over the lip without losing the grip on your potshot anchor.

Note: natural anchor games - fun. But not worth risking your life over.

Careful judgment should be exercised, which the cool, calm, experienced and skilled Nat I know can apply well. A belay from above might be useful, if the geometry works. Maybe this storm dumped some water in there, or it will be a rainy season and there will be a bit more water in there...

Tom

Tom, why don't you join us (I am hoping for an October 24 (or 24-25) descent of smiling cricket. Still haven't heard from the others if this schedule works) ? Ram sounded intersested.

So, with multiple potshots the first person goes in and ascends other side, and provides meat anchor for everyone else? I always carry jumars which would make turning the lip not so hard, but yeah, several ft of water in the pool would make it less puckery.

As far as the "cool, calm, experienced and skilled Nat" goes, I should note that Tom observed me a couple of months ago clip into the wrong (unprotected) end of the rappel rope at the top of a rap in Telephone Canyon. :haha:

Nat

[ratagonia]

From Dennis Turville's story (posted on Stefan's Canyone Talez site) it sounds like maybe Smiling Cricket could be done in one day.

Nat

And, of course, need I suggest it? The true challenge would be to do it clean.

Tom

I'm not a purist so I'd be happy just to do it, but that would be an interesting challenge. Got any ideas Tom, for sending the 50ft deep, 50ft wide pothole without the bolts for the pendulum?

Nat

I'm thinking multiple potshots. A throw that far can't have much weight in it, so you have to set up multiple fairly light potshots for the toss. Which means bringing 4 - 6 potshots, AND enough ropes to have ends for them all. 6mm pull cord would do. Take all 4 together, and put a bachman knot on em.

But... much, MUCH better in this situation if there is enough water to make a fall in acceptable. Also have to consider what the lip looks like. Would be a bummer to prusik up that far, then not be able to get over the lip without losing the grip on your potshot anchor.

Note: natural anchor games - fun. But not worth risking your life over.

Careful judgment should be exercised, which the cool, calm, experienced and skilled Nat I know can apply well. A belay from above might be useful, if the geometry works. Maybe this storm dumped some water in there, or it will be a rainy season and there will be a bit more water in there...

Tom

Tom, why don't you join us (I am hoping for an October 24 (or 24-25) descent of smiling cricket. Still haven't heard from the others if this schedule works) ? Ram sounded intersested.

So, with multiple potshots the first person goes in and ascends other side, and provides meat anchor for everyone else? I always carry jumars which would make turning the lip not so hard, but yeah, several ft of water in the pool would make it less puckery.

As far as the "cool, calm, experienced and skilled Nat" goes, I should note that Tom observed me a couple of months ago clip into the wrong (unprotected) end of the rappel rope at the top of a rap in Telephone Canyon. :haha:

Nat

If'n you toss 4 potshots with 4 - 6mm cords attached (usually, one each), then you will need to 'jumar' the 4 cords together - for which a Bachman is probably the preferred knot. The problem is, often on this kind of thing, as you get to the process of getting up onto the lip, you end up pulling harder on the rope, and the dodgy potshot anchor can slip or come over on top of you. Hopefully, that would result in a sudden drop into deep-enough water, and considerable frustration. Etc.

October 24th or so - works for me! Consider me on the team.

Tom

[nat]

If'n you toss 4 potshots with 4 - 6mm cords attached (usually, one each), then you will need to 'jumar' the 4 cords together - for which a Bachman is probably the preferred knot. The problem is, often on this kind of thing, as you get to the process of getting up onto the lip, you end up pulling harder on the rope, and the dodgy potshot anchor can slip or come over on top of you. Hopefully, that would result in a sudden drop into deep-enough water, and considerable frustration. Etc.

October 24th or so - works for me! Consider me on the team.

Tom

That's great! If there are a large number of us, perhaps we can split into a couple of groups.

Yeah, I realized after posting my last post why you mentioned a Bachman. On the other hand, although I haven't checked, I suspect that a jumar would fit over four 6ml cords.

Nat

[ratagonia]

If'n you toss 4 potshots with 4 - 6mm cords attached (usually, one each), then you will need to 'jumar' the 4 cords together - for which a Bachman is probably the preferred knot. The problem is, often on this kind of thing, as you get to the process of getting up onto the lip, you end up pulling harder on the rope, and the dodgy potshot anchor can slip or come over on top of you. Hopefully, that would result in a sudden drop into deep-enough water, and considerable frustration. Etc.

October 24th or so - works for me! Consider me on the team.

Tom

That's great! If there are a large number of us, perhaps we can split into a couple of groups.

Yeah, I realized after posting my last post why you mentioned a Bachman. On the other hand, although I haven't checked, I suspect that a jumar would fit over four 6ml cords.

Nat

I've tried something like that, but it does not weight the strands equally. Of course, a Bachman may not either.

Tom

[AJ]

A bachman/prussik/etc will definitely work better than a mechanical in that instance. Have done similar tests before...

Count on three of us from Boulder, CO. I'd like to hit the three canyons in that area all on the same trip. I can make time available; and am currently planning on a 10/23 drive out; 10/24 hike in, canyon? 10/25 - 10/27 canyons, and maybe hike out on 10/27 or 10/28. If I remember, there are three canyons around there, and if we are hiking all that way in, might as well hit all three. I am a little flexible too; so if we need to swing a day or two either way (or add more time), I'm game. Let's solidify dates and plans!

Take care,
A.J.

[nat]

A bachman/prussik/etc will definitely work better than a mechanical in that instance. Have done similar tests before...

Count on three of us from Boulder, CO. I'd like to hit the three canyons in that area all on the same trip. I can make time available; and am currently planning on a 10/23 drive out; 10/24 hike in, canyon? 10/25 - 10/27 canyons, and maybe hike out on 10/27 or 10/28. If I remember, there are three canyons around there, and if we are hiking all that way in, might as well hit all three. I am a little flexible too; so if we need to swing a day or two either way (or add more time), I'm game. Let's solidify dates and plans!

Take care,
A.J.

That time frame is good for me. I can drive down from SLC on the 23rd, and hike in on the 24th. It sounds like maybe the shortest of the 3 could be done on that day. I'd like to do Cricket on the 25th (or 25-26th if necessary). I'll probably have to hike out on the 27th.

Nat

[CarpeyBiggs]

I'm also good for those dates. :2thumbs:

[AJ]

Okay, it sounds like we are fairly well set with the dates; most people are available around the same timeframe. I am happy to do the final details of organizing if we want. We could do it here, but it might be easier just to do it over e-mail. How about this; those interested, PM me, or just e-mail me at aj(at)meet-outdoors(dot)com. Give me the dates/times you are available, and we'll put the big picture together.

Of importance, who knows exactly where these canyons are? I know they are in the Waterpocket Fold from the Canyon Tales website ( http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/canyontales/ctale.php?i=turville) ; but hope that someone has more info than that. I took a look at some maps, and wasn't really sure of the exact location. As an aside, I think it's pretty funny, that the canyons are "S", "O", "L"... Omen? ;)

Take care,
A.J.

[goofball]

As an aside, I think it's pretty funny, that the canyons are "S", "O", "L"... Omen? ;)

Take care,
A.J.

yeah, i thought that was pretty funny too. the other 2 are straightforward i was told. only poe has the nastys.

poe -

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11825663
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12742173

[nat]

As an aside, I think it's pretty funny, that the canyons are "S", "O", "L"... Omen? ;)

Take care,
A.J.

yeah, i thought that was pretty funny too. the other 2 are straightforward i was told. only poe has the nastys.

poe -

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11825663
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12742173

Geez,...I hate to display my ignorance. Is this "S", "O","L" some kind of youth culture thing that us geriatrics are too old to get? :ne_nau:

Nat

[shaggy125]

"S" is not a beginner canyon for sure, some short but serious stemming sections involved (Turville says they called it worming). "O" is straightforward and nothing too difficult unless a pothole scours deeper than what we found or something. Poe sounds pretty intense! Kinda interesting that he says "S" was a half day and "O" he talks like was a full day, it was the opposite for us, "O" seemed short and quick, (we did 3/4 of the hike out after it) "S" had a fair amount of meat on it. Crazy to think those bolts are 30 years old! Anyone going down there, use them with caution!

[goofball]

Geez,...I hate to display my ignorance. Is this "S", "O","L" some kind of youth culture thing that us geriatrics are too old to get? :ne_nau:

Nat

Shit Out of Luck

[goofball]

"S" is not a beginner canyon for sure, some short but serious stemming sections involved (Turville says they called it worming).

oops, my bad ! guess it is all a matter of perspective...

[nat]

Geez,...I hate to display my ignorance. Is this "S", "O","L" some kind of youth culture thing that us geriatrics are too old to get? :ne_nau:

Nat

Shit Out of Luck

:haha: Thanks Jason.

[shaggy125]

I guess the cat is out of the bag already isn't it. I just made my album from our trip (after Jason's scouting but before his epic trip through Cricket) down Baboon and Happy Dog public instead of private. All I had was my cell phone camera so the pictures are... uhhh... of the crappiest quality, but are better than nothing. Here is a link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/ericgodfrey/HallsCreekCanyons

[goofball]

I guess the cat is out of the bag already isn't it. I just made my album from our trip (after Jason's scouting but before his epic trip through Cricket) down Baboon and Happy Dog public instead of private. All I had was my cell phone camera so the pictures are... uhhh... of the crappiest quality, but are better than nothing. Here is a link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/ericgodfrey/HallsCreekCanyons

they may be crappy but their still pretty good. :2thumbs:

you ought to loosen up the strings on some other private stock too. :popcorn:

i got a friend who wants to go through poe now that we've done the hard work. always the chiding for the risks taken, but the 1st to want a guided tour. :roll: maybe i can talk 'em into happy dog and baboon laughs instead. if we do poe i want to replace those bolts at the "pit and the pendulum", the crux keeper. and others. they are all pretty old.

if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates. are trying to set up a shuttle from the lake to save the hassle of the drive in/hike in. we also like small groups. 3 fro sure as of now, waiting on a 4th. mark doesn't want to do that crux lead again either, so were looking for a ballsy type who has aid climbing/big wall experience. i don't mind leading it. it was scary as helll 1st time, but after seeing what it took i would take a crack. only thing is i do not have the decade(s) experience mark or his buds have. plus the rebolting while up there is an issue. how the hell did they do it in teh 1st place ?!?

anyway we'd welcome 1or 2 more w/ good solid aid climbing skills if you want to beat the rush and do it whiler its still hot...

[shaggy125]

you ought to loosen up the strings on some other private stock too. :popcorn:

Sorry, that's all the private stock I have, I haven't had a camera for the last two years so that was all (I had just gotten my new cell phone and decided to try taking pics to see how they turned out).



if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates. are trying to set up a shuttle from the lake to save the hassle of the drive in/hike in.

I checked out the shuttle before we did it, something like $114 per hour with an hour minimum (the shuttle to Halls would fall under an hour, but of course you would have to pay once there and again back) and a max of 6 people, so not too bad if you can get 6 people to split it, unless you know someone with a boat that will shuttle you. Call the lodge at Bullfrog for more info.

[goofball]

if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates. are trying to set up a shuttle from the lake to save the hassle of the drive in/hike in.

I checked out the shuttle before we did it, something like $114 per hour with an hour minimum (the shuttle to Halls would fall under an hour, but of course you would have to pay once there and again back) and a max of 6 people, so not too bad if you can get 6 people to split it, unless you know someone with a boat that will shuttle you. Call the lodge at Bullfrog for more info.

yeah i ahve been waiting on a reply from bullfrog teh las couple days. i need to call them during business hours i guess. i would totally pony up the money for that ! it would be almost 1/2 the hike in distance wise and better terrain.

thanls !

[shaggy125]

I just remembered this picture posted over on the yahoo group quite a while ago:

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_hr_1898823/87ab/__hr_/65b1.jpg?grQVwtIBu7GScMCt

Maybe we have a pothole now to compete with this one in Algeria!

[goofball]

poe/smiling cricket's is just as wide but much deeper. at least much deeper than the water level in that one.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates. are trying to set up a shuttle from the lake to save the hassle of the drive in/hike in. we also like small groups. 3 fro sure as of now, waiting on a 4th. mark doesn't want to do that crux lead again either, so were looking for a ballsy type who has aid climbing/big wall experience.

I'm interested for sure. It's been a few years but I used to Bigwall climb, I still have most of my gear. I climbed prodigal sun and moonlight buttress multiple times in Zion. Also did touchstone wall. I would love to join the group that weekend.

[tanya]

Geez,...I hate to display my ignorance. Is this "S", "O","L" some kind of youth culture thing that us geriatrics are too old to get? :ne_nau:

Nat

Shit Out of Luck

:roflol: Dang kids!


The biggies! Ram, Tom, AJ... I think I might do this one too!

[seagorn]

[quote="UtahAdventureGuide"][quote="goofball"]if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates.

Not sure about Jason, but I am definately out for those dates. Doing a paria canyon backpack during those days. Conditions should be good, though, during that time. I am not so sure about the late October time frame, however. Cold nights, short days, long canyon. Can you say 'bivy'??

[AJ]

[quote="UtahAdventureGuide"][quote=goofball]if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates.

Not sure about Jason, but I am definately out for those dates. Doing a paria canyon backpack during those days. Conditions should be good, though, during that time. I am not so sure about the late October time frame, however. Cold nights, short days, long canyon. Can you say 'bivy'??

We are currently planning on bringing bivvy gear just in case.

Tanya, are you really wanting to join? (You said "I think I might".)

We are currently at 10 people, and had already talked about cutting it off there. Chris (UtahAdventureGuide) PM'ed me about joining, so I sent an e-mail off to the group to see if we are going to add any more. If so, we are very likely breaking into two groups. Personally (no offense to Chris or yourself) I think 10 is already enough; even too much for this canyon (long hike in, coordination, new canyon(s) for all of us, short days, possible colder conditions, etc.)

However, I'm getting the group in on the decision making, so the group can decide what we want to do. We need to have everything in order before 10/6 because that's when some of the group will be out of pocket; so I need to know folk's plans by then. We will solidify the plans and stick to them on/before 10/6...

Let me know,
A.J.

[tanya]

[quote=UtahAdventureGuide][quote=goofball]if anyone would be interested in september 26-29 thats our dates.

Not sure about Jason, but I am definately out for those dates. Doing a paria canyon backpack during those days. Conditions should be good, though, during that time. I am not so sure about the late October time frame, however. Cold nights, short days, long canyon. Can you say 'bivy'??

We are currently planning on bringing bivvy gear just in case.

Tanya, are you really wanting to join? (You said "I think I might".)

We are currently at 10 people, and had already talked about cutting it off there. Chris (UtahAdventureGuide) PM'ed me about joining, so I sent an e-mail off to the group to see if we are going to add any more. If so, we are very likely breaking into two groups. Personally (no offense to Chris or yourself) I think 10 is already enough; even too much for this canyon (long hike in, coordination, new canyon(s) for all of us, short days, possible colder conditions, etc.)

However, I'm getting the group in on the decision making, so the group can decide what we want to do. We need to have everything in order before 10/6 because that's when some of the group will be out of pocket; so I need to know folk's plans by then. We will solidify the plans and stick to them on/before 10/6...

Let me know,
A.J.

Okay... next time

[AJ]

Okay... next time

Doesn't have to be next time, I just want to know if you were seriously wanting to go? You said you might want to. I just need to know if you were really wanting to go; as I'm going to then e-mail the group to let them now know that there are two folks interested (you and Chris).

I'll let the group as a whole (or at least the majority) decide on whether we will add more folks...

[ratagonia]

Wow.

For a number of reasons - Physically and mentally taxing, beautiful, and lengthy. Closest comparison to its character I can make is segers hole. But segers was brim full when i went. This was nearly empty, and after a while this just became a job and I hate working.



Just back from descending Cricket with Ram and Spidey. Double, Triple Wow! We were very impressed by the canyon and the difficulty. Much greater respect for your effort and adventure, Jason. Kudos to you.

Tom :rockon:

[goofball]

Just back from descending Cricket with Ram and Spidey. Double, Triple Wow! We were very impressed by the canyon and the difficulty. Much greater respect for your effort and adventure, Jason. Kudos to you.

Tom :rockon:

pics ? :popcorn: and i hope our ugly bolts got chopped. those antiques didn't happen to get replaced did they ? how'd you all like that ph ? oretty gnarly, huh ?

and the gorn (aka - sweet-pretty fleck :naughty: ) deserves as much (or more) credit as i do. especially since i convinced him to come and be my climbing bitch :lol8: since i am NOT a climber. i didn't know the canyon was gonna be so gnarly but since no kidding i think twice. sometimes. but always still go !

any advice for future descents ? or critiques of our beta or form ? you know you wanna ! :mrgreen:

[ratagonia]

Just back from descending Cricket with Ram and Spidey. Double, Triple Wow! We were very impressed by the canyon and the difficulty. Much greater respect for your effort and adventure, Jason. Kudos to you.

Tom :rockon:

pics ? :popcorn: and i hope our ugly bolts got chopped. those antiques didn't happen to get replaced did they ? how'd you all like that ph ? oretty gnarly, huh ?

and the gorn (aka - sweet-pretty fleck :naughty: ) deserves as much (or more) credit as i do. especially since i convinced him to come and be my climbing bitch :lol8: since i am NOT a climber. i didn't know the canyon was gonna be so gnarly but since no kidding i think twice. sometimes. but always still go !

any advice for future descents ? or critiques of our beta or form ? you know you wanna ! :mrgreen:

We found all the bolts useful, even the not-very-textbook-placed new ones, and those museum-quality-buttonheads. Yikes!! Did not replace anything, but this is a canyon that even Tom-the-mad-bolt-chopper might replace many of the bolts in. Not much natural anchor materials, unless you think leaving behind 10-12 potshots would be "natural".

Mr. Ram will have the pictures and trip report soon. I just wanted to say we were very impressed. Even ready to do gnarly stuff (ie, we brought Spidey), it was very impressive. We had easy conditions - quite a bit drier than you prolly had in May. Still got cold. Wonderful Canyon, destined to be a classic.

Tom

[Scott Card]

I hope you will do a write-up with Ram's photos. I spoke with Spidey yesterday and I must tell you I thought of you guys about 100 times last week and wishing I was there. Of course I would not have contributed anything to that strong team except more meat to anchor from, some height and of course a bit of entertainment while watching me down climb. Well done! Sounded like pot-hole mecca.

[seagorn]

Just back from descending Cricket with Ram and Spidey. Double, Triple Wow! We were very impressed by the canyon and the difficulty. Much greater respect for your effort and adventure, Jason. Kudos to you.

Tom :rockon:[/quote]

Well done! Most impressive considering the conditions you faced. Cold temps and short days...did you guys bivy in the canyon? Looking forward to the pics and trip report. how bout that 'pit and pendulum' ?!?

[ratagonia]

Just back from descending Cricket with Ram and Spidey. Double, Triple Wow! We were very impressed by the canyon and the difficulty. Much greater respect for your effort and adventure, Jason. Kudos to you.

Tom :rockon:

Well done! Most impressive considering the conditions you faced. Cold temps and short days...did you guys bivy in the canyon? Looking forward to the pics and trip report. how bout that 'pit and pendulum' ?!?

No in-canyon bivy. Long, cold nights, but the water levels were low, and most potholes were dry (which we think made it MUCH easier). Spidey did impressive throws (2) to get potshots over the giant keeper; than batmanned up the rope on the other side. The climb to the first bolt of the 'pit and pendulum' looked kinda dicey.

Ram will have the trip report in about a week. He got some great pics of spidey doing the tosses.

Tom

[seagorn]

Spidey did impressive throws (2) to get potshots over the giant keeper; than batmanned up the rope on the other side. The climb to the first bolt of the 'pit and pendulum' looked kinda dicey.

Ram will have the trip report in about a week. He got some great pics of spidey doing the tosses.

Tom[/quote]

Incredible. We tried hurling a pot shot half full of sand across the pit only to have it land on the flat ground that reaches for dozens of feet beyond the lip of the other side. This Spidey fellow must have been a major league pitcher! Jason and I were certain you guys would have to do the dicey ascent to the pendelum, just like the first ascent party and we did. Just curious, how much water was in that big pothole?

[ratagonia]

Spidey did impressive throws (2) to get potshots over the giant keeper; than batmanned up the rope on the other side. The climb to the first bolt of the 'pit and pendulum' looked kinda dicey.

Ram will have the trip report in about a week. He got some great pics of spidey doing the tosses.

Tom

Incredible. We tried hurling a pot shot half full of sand across the pit only to have it land on the flat ground that reaches for dozens of feet beyond the lip of the other side. This Spidey fellow must have been a major league pitcher! Jason and I were certain you guys would have to do the dicey ascent to the pendelum, just like the first ascent party and we did. Just curious, how much water was in that big pothole?

We reduced the weight to between 1/3 and 1/4th; Spidey climbed up high and stemmed the slot, lowered the potshot on the rope about 5 feet then swung it back and forth. Got the first one over second try, and a second one over 3rd try. They did not require much weight, as the placement was good and there was a bit of a lip at the top to catch on.

Ram or I might have been able to do the same(ish), but Spidey-power allowed him to stand up really high quite comfortably, and not be tied in. Being tied in might have conflicted with getting a good swing on the pendulum.

The big pothole was still swimmer. I'd estimate about 18 feet from water level to the lip on the opposite side. The pothole was again about 18 feet across, and the flat part on the other side was maybe 20 feet, so total throw about 40 feet, with 10 or 15 feet of height advantage.

Really appreciated the slung "wart" on canyon left, somewhat further down, to avoid the super-nasty pothole.

Tom

[goofball]

Incredible. We tried hurling a pot shot half full of sand across the pit only to have it land on the flat ground that reaches for dozens of feet beyond the lip of the other side. This Spidey fellow must have been a major league pitcher! Jason and I were certain you guys would have to do the dicey ascent to the pendelum, just like the first ascent party and we did. Just curious, how much water was in that big pothole?

We reduced the weight to between 1/3 and 1/4th; Spidey climbed up high and stemmed the slot, lowered the potshot on the rope about 5 feet then swung it back and forth. Got the first one over second try, and a second one over 3rd try. They did not require much weight, as the placement was good and there was a bit of a lip at the top to catch on.

Ram or I might have been able to do the same(ish), but Spidey-power allowed him to stand up really high quite comfortably, and not be tied in. Being tied in might have conflicted with getting a good swing on the pendulum.

The big pothole was still swimmer. I'd estimate about 18 feet from water level to the lip on the opposite side. The pothole was again about 18 feet across, and the flat part on the other side was maybe 20 feet, so total throw about 40 feet, with 10 or 15 feet of height advantage.

Really appreciated the slung "wart" on canyon left, somewhat further down, to avoid the super-nasty pothole.

Tom

so our memoried estimates on that ph were influenced by the belly drop effect at the time if you think it was only 18' diameter. are you sure ? i swear it had to be more than that. my bedroom is ~20' wide and i know it is smaller than that rim to rim ph diameter. hmmmmmm... but nice work ! and we definitely had more than 18' between water level in ph and the lip. nice to know it is escapable w/ potshots. i like that idea MUCH better.

yeah, when i saw that 2nd ph i was ready to shoot someone, but since i only had one partner along i resisted. was very happy to sling that wart. mark thought it was loose and crumbly. i thought it was rather solid, even if not 100% ideally shaped. can you break the tie ?

can't wait to hear a full assessment and see some pics !

[ratagonia]

so our memoried estimates on that ph were influenced by the belly drop effect at the time if you think it was only 18' diameter. are you sure ? i swear it had to be more than that. my bedroom is ~20' wide and i know it is smaller than that rim to rim ph diameter. hmmmmmm... but nice work ! and we definitely had more than 18' between water level in ph and the lip. nice to know it is escapable w/ potshots. i like that idea MUCH better.

yeah, when i saw that 2nd ph i was ready to shoot someone, but since i only had one partner along i resisted. was very happy to sling that wart. mark thought it was loose and crumbly. i thought it was rather solid, even if not 100% ideally shaped. can you break the tie ?

can't wait to hear a full assessment and see some pics !

The wart was good. Looked scrapy from below, but the topside was solid.

I thought the pothole was 18' wide, 25-30 feet long, and about 18' tall at the exit. I expect we had less water than you, but maybe not. We had LOTS of dry potholes. Would've been REALLY COLD with a lot of water in it, but given the huge size and quantity of potholes, it would take quite a bit of storm action to fill the place up.

Tom

[AJ]

Goof and Gorn, major kudos to you. That canyon was awesome; but definitely the most challenging obstacles I have run into to date.

I second that Tom, Ram and Spidey did an awesome job. We tried to make the toss, and were able to land a shot, but tested the pull from the other rim and were very un-impressed with how little force it took to go back over the lip. In hindsight, should have tried to land another shot or two there, and especially try it from the water. I thought it was a very difficult throw though. Guess I need to go back to Potshot school...

We decided to go the high route after that. Definitely was a challenge. Even worse was the second hook hole blew out, and I took a 20' ground fall. Hit my elbow pretty good on the way down, but otherwise, no injury. I had placed our packs under me so I had something fall on if a hole blew, which probably saved me from a likely twisted or broken ankle. That upclimb was the scariest thing I have done in a LONG time. Kudos to whomever did it on your team.

Luckily, I tested each hole pretty well; using my partners from below, because the top hole blew out too. Would have certainly been a major injury if I was on it. Unfortunately, that meant I had to make some (even more) unprotected, scary climbing moves to get to the first bolt; which I didn't like the looks of. But certainly much better than the unprotected climb up there.

Used that bolt to lean to the second, and felt much better about the second bolt (and now being attached to both.) We used heavy shots to work our way over to the other shore. I was leary about doing a pendulum from a swing due to the sharp ledges on the wall there.

We ended up doing a bivvy in the pothole just before the crux (after retreating from the crux pothole); my first bivvy in a canyon. While it was kind of planned, we were hoping for more. Took LOTS of time at that pothole; something like 10 hrs. The rest were pretty fun in my opinion (but certainly, still challenging.)

Ram's group was insanely skilled; and made it out in well less than a day. Major kudos to them. I don't think I could have done what they did; but plan on working on skills and attempting the canyon again next year.

Overall, it's a great canyon; one of the best I've seen. However, it's also one of the deadliest, in my opinion. The crux pothole takes a lot of skill and power (batman up that line? Wow.) The anchors are insanely bad. Most placed in the watercourse, and over 20 years old. One of them pulled completely out quite easily. The "wart" Tom and Jason talk of is hollow; and is an accident waiting to happen. Yeah, it felt solid enough to rap off right now (very gingerly), but it won't be in the future.

Whomever goes into that canyon next, should take at least 10 bolts, and be prepared to replace many old anchors. Again, just my opinion, YMMV.

I'll have more details and pics out in a TR later.


Take care,
A.J.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Sounds like a pretty real place. Thanks for posting AJ. Hope the elbow heals up quickly.

BTW, I think I made the right choice by excusing myself from the trip...

[goofball]

Goof and Gorn, major kudos to you. That canyon was awesome; but definitely the most challenging obstacles I have run into to date.

I second that Tom, Ram and Spidey did an awesome job. We tried to make the toss, and were able to land a shot, but tested the pull from the other rim and were very un-impressed with how little force it took to go back over the lip. In hindsight, should have tried to land another shot or two there, and especially try it from the water. I thought it was a very difficult throw though. Guess I need to go back to Potshot school...

We decided to go the high route after that. Definitely was a challenge. Even worse was the second hook hole blew out, and I took a 20' ground fall. Hit my elbow pretty good on the way down, but otherwise, no injury. I had placed our packs under me so I had something fall on if a hole blew, which probably saved me from a likely twisted or broken ankle. That upclimb was the scariest thing I have done in a LONG time. Kudos to whomever did it on your team.

Luckily, I tested each hole pretty well; using my partners from below, because the top hole blew out too. Would have certainly been a major injury if I was on it. Unfortunately, that meant I had to make some (even more) unprotected, scary climbing moves to get to the first bolt; which I didn't like the looks of. But certainly much better than the unprotected climb up there.

Used that bolt to lean to the second, and felt much better about the second bolt (and now being attached to both.) We used heavy shots to work our way over to the other shore. I was leary about doing a pendulum from a swing due to the sharp ledges on the wall there.

We ended up doing a bivvy in the pothole just before the crux (after retreating from the crux pothole); my first bivvy in a canyon. While it was kind of planned, we were hoping for more. Took LOTS of time at that pothole; something like 10 hrs. The rest were pretty fun in my opinion (but certainly, still challenging.)

Ram's group was insanely skilled; and made it out in well less than a day. Major kudos to them. I don't think I could have done what they did; but plan on working on skills and attempting the canyon again next year.

Overall, it's a great canyon; one of the best I've seen. However, it's also one of the deadliest, in my opinion. The crux pothole takes a lot of skill and power (batman up that line? Wow.) The anchors are insanely bad. Most placed in the watercourse, and over 20 years old. One of them pulled completely out quite easily. The "wart" Tom and Jason talk of is hollow; and is an accident waiting to happen. Yeah, it felt solid enough to rap off right now (very gingerly), but it won't be in the future.

Whomever goes into that canyon next, should take at least 10 bolts, and be prepared to replace many old anchors. Again, just my opinion, YMMV.

I'll have more details and pics out in a TR later.


Take care,
A.J.

glad you are ok. i heard someone fell but didn't know who. that ph is serious. mark thought that horn was a really bad idea, i thought it was ok. sounds like mark was right though. the pothole it gets you past is damn nasty looking, maybe a hook or, better yet a bolt, is the most prudent and safest thing there. definitely throughout the canyon bolts need replacing if people are going to continue going in. else it will definitely be sooner rather than later when someone gets seriously injured or killed. mike bogart and jenny hall (& co. ?) who pioneered this canyon have my utmost respect and i am in awe that 1 day was all it took, given all the work and obstacles. wow. also very glad i didn't go back in just before you guys. backed out on a partner and felt bad about, it but VERY glad i did now. rather have busted a camera than become a "forever baby" due to a nasty accident.

but can't wait to see some more pics !

i've had a page up for a bit here - http://www.summitpost.org/user_page.php?user_id=42829 any comments anyone wants to add on poe/smiling cricket or others please do so, it can only help keep people safer. i really like the sp format and how interactive it is, allowing for comments and contributions from others, provides a nice up-to-date beta snapshot if taken advantage of.

[ratagonia]

I second that Tom, Ram and Spidey did an awesome job. We tried to make the toss, and were able to land a shot, but tested the pull from the other rim and were very un-impressed with how little force it took to go back over the lip. In hindsight, should have tried to land another shot or two there, and especially try it from the water. I thought it was a very difficult throw though. Guess I need to go back to Potshot school...



Just to be clear -

1. You mean, should have TESTED from the water. Throwing from the water is totally ineffective.
2. The Pot Shots have to go over the neck, then down the other side, out of sight. When you pull on em, they tend to pull up until they get to the lip, and then stick there. Can be spooky.
3. Pulling on em from down in the pothole, you get a lot of friction going over the edge and across the top. Careful climbing of the rope can be done so the load is kept close to the rock.
4. The problem is, at the top, getting over the lip, the direction of the forces becomes less advantageous. On this particular pothole, there is one mediocre handhold at the top that helps a little.
5. Very nice to do this kinda thing with a deep pool underneath you. If the bags pull try to let go of the rope, so that after you fall into the pool, the sandbags do not clonk you on the head. Pushing out from the wall as you fall is probably a good idea, too.

I was surprised the original party did not bat hook out of this pool. The wall is just less than vertical, and therefore would be relatively straightforward to bathook out of. 'course, we have no idea how deep the pothole really is, should the water and sand be gone.

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

the hook holes placed by the pioneering party were bomber, as were the 1/4 inch bolts....

After reading AJ's story, I wonder how bomber this stuff really was?

[AJ]

Dan, not bomber at all. Was definitely more cautious and creative in that canyon than any previous canyons. Also was more scared at that crux pothole than I have been in a LONG time...

Yes Tom, testing the pull of the potshots from the water is what I meant; pretty obvious you can't throw the shots from there.

We did have the shot over the lip, and it pulled up really easily. Didn't think it would hold. Was obviously wrong. Will need to play with shots more, as I mentioned...

Yes, getting over that pothole lip was the issue I was worried about. That's why I tested the potshot pull from where we were; prior to swimming in the pothole. (We tested the depth of the water in the pothole, and it was over 8 feet deep.) I was trying to factor in the added friction, and didn't think it was going to work; which is why we went the high route.

Take care,
A.J.

[CarpeyBiggs]

For those interested, an interesting write up from Ram, Tom and Spidey from last week.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/47755

[goofball]

the hook holes placed by the pioneering party were bomber, as were the 1/4 inch bolts....

After reading AJ's story, I wonder how bomber this stuff really was?

agreed. we inspected them all. none moved in the least. possible we did miss one between the 2 of us thinking the other had inspected, or just being absent minded (not good here).

[ratagonia]

the hook holes placed by the pioneering party were bomber, as were the 1/4 inch bolts....

After reading AJ's story, I wonder how bomber this stuff really was?

Hook holes? NEVER bomber. Always require considerable skill, judgement and luck to pass without plummeting.

Tom

[ratagonia]

the hook holes placed by the pioneering party were bomber, as were the 1/4 inch bolts....

After reading AJ's story, I wonder how bomber this stuff really was?

agreed. we inspected them all. none moved in the least. possible we did miss one between the 2 of us thinking the other had inspected, or just being absent minded (not good here).

Assuming we ALL can agree the hook holes are unlikely to move...

Bolts are very, very hard to inspect. That they did not move (were not noticeably loose) is perhaps of some comfort, this is far from a convincing inspection. On the short drops, those were 1/4" split-shank buttonheads. If you're interested in what they look like, here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/6p7jv5

Those can just suddenly pull out, very scary, you rappel last!

The stud bolts are also suspect, because the steel is not such good stuff. Thankfully, they have not been repeatedly stressed, which might expand corrosion cracks or create fatigue cracks. Yikes! Scary stuff.

While I am usually pretty vehemently anti-bolt, this canyon has me thinking differently. There is little to no spare material in the canyon. COULD use sandbags, but as Ram said, this would involve 2 days, dry suits, and bringing maybe a dozen potshots. Hmmmm..... not TOO bad of an idea...

Tom

[goofball]

Assuming we ALL can agree the hook holes are unlikely to move...

Bolts are very, very hard to inspect. That they did not move (were not noticeably loose) is perhaps of some comfort, this is far from a convincing inspection. On the short drops, those were 1/4" split-shank buttonheads. If you're interested in what they look like, here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/6p7jv5

Those can just suddenly pull out, very scary, you rappel last!

The stud bolts are also suspect, because the steel is not such good stuff. Thankfully, they have not been repeatedly stressed, which might expand corrosion cracks or create fatigue cracks. Yikes! Scary stuff.

While I am usually pretty vehemently anti-bolt, this canyon has me thinking differently. There is little to no spare material in the canyon. COULD use sandbags, but as Ram said, this would involve 2 days, dry suits, and bringing maybe a dozen potshots. Hmmmm..... not TOO bad of an idea...

Tom

well those buttonheads don't look very comforting at all, i have to admit. not being near as seasoned as you guys i really appreciate the point of view. mark has been a serious climber for 20 years plus and i trust his judgment completely as well. maybe his point of reference and comfort zone is different. although he was concerned w/ their age as well.

[ratagonia]

well those buttonheads don't look very comforting at all, i have to admit. not being near as seasoned as you guys i really appreciate the point of view. mark has been a serious climber for 20 years plus and i trust his judgment completely as well. maybe his point of reference and comfort zone is different. although he was concerned w/ their age as well.

climbing and bolting on rock is very different than climbing and bolting on sandstone.

The cool thing is, that sitting there for 25 years or so, without being used, they tend to rust into the rock and get more solid. Whereas, a split-shank buttonhead that was in Keyhole and used a LOT, came out with a little wiggling with my fingers.

And yes, next time through, replacing at least a half-dozen bolts is in the cards; especially the buttonheads.

Tom

[AJ]

I think replacing the bolts there is a very good idea. If I do the trip next year, as I'm currently planning on right now; I'll be bringing in bolts to do it. However, as Tom mentioned, placing bolts in sandstone is different. I have only placed two bolts in sandstone, and that was almost 10 years ago. Definitely out of practice, and will be practicing up before heading in there again.

As for the security of those bolts; as Tom mentioned, the bolt not moving is definitely a good sign. However, since most of the bolts are placed directly in the watercourse, they can be getting hit with debris during flash floods. This could damage the bolt, or cause the sandstone it's in to crack/weaken. Not my idea of safe.

Also, some of the nuts were loose on a couple of the bolts, and one bolt pulled completely out with just finger pressure; so there are definitely some that need to be replaced IMHO.

Given the amount of anchor material in that canyon, I feel bolts are a good idea. With the conditions we had, there were several places where we filled and used potshots, built a rock anchor, etc. However, with more water, that option may not be available; and that canyon definitely had signs that it held more water than where we saw it...


Take care,
A.J.