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Thread: Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    i'd hate to be the guy that has to peck out of this one to get across...
    WOW! That is truly a great shot!.. Damn.. thats way more than a great shot! Who took this? You? Amazing photo!!
    I need a Canyoneering partner! I have a open schedule, all my own gear and am looking to go as much as possible..PM me!

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DSTRBD
    WOW! That is truly a great shot!.. Damn.. thats way more than a great shot! Who took this? You? Amazing photo!!
    indeed. one of his best IMO

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    indeed. one of his best IMO
    Yeah. Looking at that photo makes me feel like double rainbow guy might feel at the sight of a quadruple rainbow. Whoaaaa... Stunning.

  5. #24
    Just curious, how often is this keeper in Neon a problem? Only during drought conditions or is it sporadic? And when the pool is full it's pretty much nothing to get out of it? Sorry to derail your conversation with my n00b questions, just curious.

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    Attachment 37039
    image from a video by ira lewis
    OMG...searches for facepalm icon... Really! damn.....

    I have just learned three things here...

    1. The stick thing is not a bad idea, I was just thinking mobile.

    2.The Neon keeper is WAAAY bigger than it looked in pictures until now (thats a big stick!)

    3. I have one more idea that will work in this situation...I think...that I thought would not work prior to seeing how wide the canyon really is.
    I need a Canyoneering partner! I have a open schedule, all my own gear and am looking to go as much as possible..PM me!

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ibenick View Post
    Yeah. Looking at that photo makes me feel like double rainbow guy might feel at the sight of a quadruple rainbow. Whoaaaa... Stunning.
    OMG.... Cranberry and vodka out my nose! Thanks!!

    What does it mean??
    I need a Canyoneering partner! I have a open schedule, all my own gear and am looking to go as much as possible..PM me!

  8. #27
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenick View Post
    Just curious, how often is this keeper in Neon a problem? Only during drought conditions or is it sporadic? And when the pool is full it's pretty much nothing to get out of it? Sorry to derail your conversation with my n00b questions, just curious.
    from what I've read it varies. it can be full where you swim right over it, never a problem. sometimes there is a lot of water, but still under the lip, but you can get an assist to reach the lip and over. Sometimes it could be bone dry where you are your partners create a human pyramid to send one person out to help everyone else get out. Or the same thing could be done when your partners can touch the bottom with a little water in it. Sometimes you cant touch the bottom and the lip is too high.

    I talked to one of the members of a group that got turned back in Neon. He thought they could make it with a several more tries. But one member had become hypothermic so they retreated. One tool to remember is water protection to tread water long enough to concur.



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    to answer the original question of thinking outside the box. never tried it, never heard of results from doing it. one idea that I heard was get a softball and drill hole big enough for the rope to fit through but small enough a knot will not pass back through. throw the softball way past the slopping lip and hope it catches on something. maybe possible to make a softball octopus.

    also heard of pack raft. get everyone packs together with flotation. tie together the packs stand on pack raft to get over the lip. may require a swimmer to stablelize.

  9. #28
    ha. thanks for the kind words. though taking the photo is the easy part. being there was a gift, not because of anything i did on my own, for sure. also, i would likely never go into that place without the group that essentially took me through it. it's uh... the second biggest pothole i've ever gone through. a real monster. it's been known to damage a few groups in the past. the only scarier one i've seen can be cheated though with an easy potshot and tyrolean, and some creative thinking.

    this is a video that shows some of the pothole exiting techniques, and some REALLY big keepers, albeit the scenes are short and quick. it's a project i never finished because of... well, because i never finish anything... maybe i should do that sometime.


  10. #29
    Wow...Thats what i'm taking about! Great video, fantastic looking canyon! well done. Is there a TR on that somewhere?
    I need a Canyoneering partner! I have a open schedule, all my own gear and am looking to go as much as possible..PM me!

  11. #30
    Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.

  12. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    BDC - if you only have to drill one or two holes, it might not be unbearable. i'd love to see someone pick out of the big holes. it would take all day. especially if you did multiple keepers.
    Nah, for an experienced sandstone aid climber, it really doesn't take that long. I think I've done 7 in a day fairly quickly. A couple were multiples.

    I can drill fairly fast (4" deep hole in some sandstones in 20 minutes give or take?). Given that you only need a deep enough hole to fit a hook...

    GREAT photo!

    Neon keeper: I'd start to the right if I had to drill out....three holes maybe?

    Only if I had to though...

    Cheers!

    -Brian in SLC

  13. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.
    Pack with floatation in it works as well as anything. And, it not extra gear. If you need padding, most packs also have a removable foam pad that can work too. Also something you'll have with you.

    As long as your partner isn't wearing metal cleats (tricouni nails? Ha ha) in their shoes, I've never felt the need for any padding on a partner assist, shoulder stand, etc. Of course, some of us think we're more durable (or have a higher tolerance for damage) too...

    I've never found that much lift from any floatation in a pothole that would give enough boost to do much of anything compared to just a lunge from a doggy paddle swim or some such.

  14. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post

    That is one of my top 2 or 3 favorite canyoneering photos of all time.
    Life is Good

  15. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    That is one of my top 2 or 3 favorite canyoneering photos of all time.
    +1
    I love this shot.

  16. #35
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oval View Post
    I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.
    That would be a drill holder (Petzl Pecker), a 3/8" drill bit, a hammer, and two BD Talon hooks, at least one with an etrier attached - to be more specific. The "Nuclear Option". "Courage in your rucksack", as the climbers used to say. Good to have along in Imlay or Heaps, with unknown water conditions.

    (To be more specific)

    Tom

  17. #36
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    not sure it would help you in a true swimming keeper. ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible. what's more, the keeper in neon is overhanging at the lip, if i remember correctly (though i've never seen it as a keeper, always have swam over the top of it...)
    Has been done. One whack, swim back to it, get another whack, etc. Better with a partner, who can swim against you, holding you to the wall. Overhanging might require setting an actual bolt in the hole, though maybe not setting it all the way. Floats attached to each item decreases the penalty for dropping any one item. Tales of diving for the hooks in a skanky pothole in Imlay come to mind.

    Tom

  18. #37
    First of all, CarpeyBiggs, UNREAL photo! Whether or not you have heard of canyoneering, that photo just pulls you in. Even more so if you can appreciate the skills being displayed. Well done!

    Quote Originally Posted by DSTRBD View Post
    I have just been using a tent pole (fiberglass) In "tests", Obviously something stronger is needed for body weight, the beta test works well though, In a slot similar to the one (neon) Stephen posted it catches almost everytime.
    What about a trekking pole? They are light weight, pretty strong (unless fully extended), and they are adjustable length for different uses.

  19. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Floats attached to each item decreases the penalty for dropping any one item. Tales of diving for the hooks in a skanky pothole in Imlay come to mind.
    Nah, Rokpec has a wrist loop. Hammer has a shoulder sling and cord. Hooks should be attached to your person (sling or daisy).

  20. #39
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSTRBD View Post
    See this is an "Ideal" area for the Stick idea no?
    Black is the stick
    Red is the rope.
    The rope goes close to one end, if you can get it there. So this can work ... for short sticks. As the stick gets longer, the stick need to be fatter and fatter. Your 10' Neon stick would need to be 1-1/2" thin wall aluminum, roughly 10 lbs. The 1/2" tent pole on the Happy Hooker is the largest high-strength pole size Easton makes, and notice how flexxy it is.

    There is rarely anything to hook on the other side of the pool. This is why the Happy Hooker (still made) is so unsuccessful. My other thought with the HH is you could always chuck it like a spear, if you were going for a debris pile and looking to get the hook to catch on something. In fact, as a 5 foot pole (rather than 11 foot) maybe this would work better than the current HH... hmmmmmmm.

    As a bracing pole, I have experimented with the HH 1/2" pole. There are a few places where it can be useful, to get a foot or two of extra reach. But once you put close to full body weight on it, it flexes and fails to support. Again, a thicker pole would be stiffer, but would weight a lot more.

    Just to clarify, if seeking new tools, the designer would look for tools that are useful in a range of circumstances. There are often tools that can be devised for a single, known problem, but would not really work for other problems. So, maybe a stout, 5 foot black walnut 1-1/2" dowel would work well for the Neon keeper, but carrying it in other canyons it would quickly become firewood. Pot Shots work really well, and still, sometimes throwing an actual pack works better. The "hooking kit: drill and hook" is extremely powerful, but has ethical issues and is slow. And not as much fun.

    Some other ideas kicked around:

    A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

    B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

    Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

    Tom

  21. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    That would be a drill holder (Petzl Pecker), a 3/8" drill bit, a hammer, and two BD Talon hooks, at least one with an etrier attached - to be more specific. The "Nuclear Option". "Courage in your rucksack", as the climbers used to say. Good to have along in Imlay or Heaps, with unknown water conditions.

    (To be more specific)

    Tom
    Yeah, always a fine line when deciding to leave fixed, non-clean gear. But there are some situations that call for it. Even Reinhold Messner used a hammer and pins and left fixed gear.

    I personally wouldn't call it a "nuclear" option, but I wouldn't describe it as unimportant or insignificant either. Just a last resort if other techniques fail or make something unacceptably risky and life threatening.

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