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Thread: Rope grooves & rappeling

  1. #21
    70% of rope grooving in caused by laziness... probably anther 29% cause by lack of experience/lack of skills....

    Most of the rope groove problems could be easily solved if we all just stepped up to the plate and do out part in providing a proper anchor and/or mentoring the less skilled.

    Dang…. You can really see a long ways from the top of this horse!

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  3. #22
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Whatever you put on or under the rope you also have to be able to pull down without snagging when you are done.
    The idea with leather is, it falls down, and maybe you get it. It is inexpensive, and less trashy than a more-artificial kind of material left in a canyon.

    Works OK a lot of the time, poorly at other times.

    Tom

  4. #23
    I took a look at the slide show for the Spirol Rope Protector. Looks like it's main purpose is to do exaxctly what it's name says- protect your rope from sharp edges, etc., not so much to try and save the rock. Seems fairly flexible and would perhaps pull okay but wraps so tightly around the rope that it may not do any good for the rock. You could easily envision it grinding it's way in. Perhaps it's smoother surface would be less abrasive than the rope itself. Obviously not designed for the sandstone that canyoneers have to deal with - just look at the rock in the photo, but would it help?

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    The idea with leather is, it falls down, and maybe you get it. It is inexpensive, and less trashy than a more-artificial kind of material left in a canyon.

    Works OK a lot of the time, poorly at other times.

    Tom
    There is usually a dead deer or two in the canyon which will provide a natural source of leather for this rock protection.
    Life is Good

  6. #25
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbaggers View Post
    I took a look at the slide show for the Spirol Rope Protector. Looks like it's main purpose is to do exaxctly what it's name says- protect your rope from sharp edges, etc., not so much to try and save the rock. Seems fairly flexible and would perhaps pull okay but wraps so tightly around the rope that it may not do any good for the rock. You could easily envision it grinding it's way in. Perhaps it's smoother surface would be less abrasive than the rope itself. Obviously not designed for the sandstone that canyoneers have to deal with - just look at the rock in the photo, but would it help?
    Yes, it would.

    Again, there are many things we can do in a non-pull-through environment. And we should do. But the normal canyoneering scenario is a pull-through environment, and that is a tougher nut to crack. I think Mark Smith may be onto something that will work. We'll see.

    Tom

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Yes, it would.

    Again, there are many things we can do in a non-pull-through environment. And we should do. But the normal canyoneering scenario is a pull-through environment, and that is a tougher nut to crack. I think Mark Smith may be onto something that will work. We'll see.

    Tom
    There has been a discussion going on over on the Canyon Group about a releasable Stone Knot. A concept was posted about using a screwdriver in place of the biner in a stone knot and then pulling the screwdriver to release the knot. One leg of the knot would only be a few feet long and when released it would either feed around the anchor or feed thru the rapide and come falling down. I have been thinking about this for a few days and decided to add a keeper pin to the rod to prevent pre release.

    Here are some pictures of a couple of devices I created today. The larger one is a 1/2" tube and is actually easier to pull then the 3/8 rod. What makes the tube pull out easily is when you pull it the tube rotates the Stone Knot so the tube is vertical and pulls right out. The pull down cord needs to be extended out a little from the knot to create the needed leverage. The smaller one struggles to rotate the knot. When pulling the pull cord the keeper pin pulls and then the tube pulls. The keeper pin is the size of the ones used on a hitch pin for a truck. Tom had the idea to put the pin in the middle of the knot and I think that is the way to set it up.


    https://picasaweb.google.com/markimsmith/StoneKnot#

  8. #27
    Here is one more picture showing how it pulls. I have played with this in a controlled environment (20' rappels in a gym) and seems to work quite well. Needs to be tested in the real world.

    Edit in the real world I would leave a tail that is a couple of ft long. But for the picture I shortened it up.

    Mark
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #28
    I played around with the 1/2" tube and it has the same problem as the 1" wood dowel I started with. When pulling the rappel strand it will pop free but the loop in the release side still holds it shape and the knot cinches down on itself. The rod has to be 3/8" or smaller to successfully collapse each time.
    Here is a picture showing what happens with the 1/2" tube.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #29
    While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

    I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.

  11. #30
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    I played around with the 1/2" tube and it has the same problem as the 1" wood dowel I started with. When pulling the rappel strand it will pop free but the loop in the release side still holds it shape and the knot cinches down on itself. The rod has to be 3/8" or smaller to successfully collapse each time.
    Here is a picture showing what happens with the 1/2" tube.
    Try making the Stone Knot UP, rather than down. I usually make it down, but, after making the loop, you can slide it to the two strands above the pivot point (the crossing) rather than down. The dynamic changes slightly, might work better.

    Tom

  12. #31
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oval View Post
    While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

    I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.
    The goal is to make something that is 100% safe, but we might end up with something that is only 99% safe, and has to be used with care. But then again, people screw up various kinds of rigging, including kinds we think are very, very simple and safe.

    Tom

  13. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by oval View Post
    While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

    I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.
    If you do it right you've rigged it for the first person with it backed up and tested it with each subsequent person until the last person goes. That way you can greatly reduce the chance that something goes wrong because you've already tested it with two or 3 people with the back up. and then the experienced last person is extra careful.

  14. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Try making the Stone Knot UP, rather than down. I usually make it down, but, after making the loop, you can slide it to the two strands above the pivot point (the crossing) rather than down. The dynamic changes slightly, might work better.

    Tom
    I'll try that. One twist I tried is where the two strands go over the tube or rod I crossed them with the rappel strand on top of the release strand. You cannot have the pin in the middle under this scenerio. When the rappel strand is pulled it seems to pop the release strand out with it. From what I am seeing the rod needs to be small to be comfortable with a guaranteed release. On the 3/8's one I drilled the hole big enough for the hitch pin but there isn't much meat to the rod for it to click on. Also when using the small rod I see absolutely no slippage in the Stone Knot. If someone can come up with a different idea for a pin we would be in business. Or just make the rod about 10" long and it should be solid. Once the knot has been dressed the pin is going nowhere. We tried to pull the short pin while on rappel and that is never going to happen. It wouldn't move a 1/4".



    Mark

  15. #34
    Anybody ever played with one of the double microcenders? If one of the jaws was going in the other direction may work for a releasable device? One set of jaws on rappel strand, one on the short end. Have a pull release on short side and the device would come down on the rappel strand? Yea it would be pricey but hey may work. May also break on the first drop. Would need to be tough and maybe rubber coated. It's price is right on Shanes threshold.

    Mark

    http://www.rockexotica.com/products/...s_camming.html

  16. #35
    Bump

    There is a discussion going on in another thread about fiddlesticks. If you look up a couple of posts you can see some pictures of the ones I was playing with. I could not get them to consistently collapse.

    Mark

  17. #36
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Yours is not a stone hitch, others have had similar release problems when tied improper.

    When tied as I showed in "how do you stein" I have had it release everytime, up to 200'(really pretty fun to watch come down)

    Just make sure your pull path is clear, so the dowell cannot get lodged in a crack or ??

  18. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Getting canyoneers as a group to blow the dust off their wallets is never going to happen.
    One can imagine that as the sport gets more popular, so will more specific regulation - perhaps even by the BLM. So...never say never :)

  19. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Yours is not a stone hitch, others have had similar release problems when tied improper.

    When tied as I showed in "how do you stein" I have had it release everytime, up to 200'(really pretty fun to watch come down)

    Just make sure your pull path is clear, so the dowell cannot get lodged in a crack or ??
    What brand of rope?

  20. #39
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    What brand of rope?
    Mostly ICG/8-8.3mm

    Will admit to very little real time experience with 9mm.

    Seems the line of choice for us is usually 8mmish when squeezing and longer days are part of the itinerary.

  21. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia View Post
    I saw this at REI a couple weeks back. I think the price was around ten dollars.
    I use one of these and was even able to pull it through the rapid in Fry when pulling the rope. Worked great

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