Show don't tell

[Slot Machine]

I also consider the routes extremely difficult to describe. Another good reason to have them in the "show not tell" category.

Tom

****THIS POST WAS MOVED FROM A DIFFERENT THREAD, I INFREQUENTLY START A THREAD JUST TO PICK A FIGHT ****

For those playing along at home, let me explain the nuances between "secret", "sensitive" and "show don't tell" in regard to canyoneering.

Secret - A canyon that has been found, descended and never or rarely shared. Sometimes guide companies will take people through canyons that fall into this category; using the canyon as a business commodity of sorts.

Sensitive - A canyon environment that is easy to damage or at risk of being shut down by local authorities due to increased traffic and/or the actions of irresponsible canyoneers. Canyons on private property also fall into this category.

Show Don't Tell - A canyon that has been discovered, descended and then shared with others based on a solemn agreement to not disseminate information on said canyon. Back in the dark ages, the canyoneering community might have become outraged if a person violated this agreement. The reasons behind this outrage remain a mystery to historians and archeologists to this day. Since the advent of high resolution satellite imagery and websites that promote the widespread sharing of beta, "Show Don't Tell" is quickly becoming an archaic category.

On a personal note, "Show Don't Tell" canyoneering culture makes me hurl.

Anyway, Lomatium and Krill are not canyons, they are routes that run over and through the Fiery Furnace. I would also categorize them as "sensitive".

(If you were fishing Tom, yeah, you got me.)

Bob

[ratagonia]

(If you were fishing Tom, yeah, you got me.)

Bob

I wasn't fishing. And if you were fishing, I sniffed the bait, but was smart enough not to snap at it!

But here's a nugget for you - sounds like a new concept in your universe: http://bit.ly/HWYWFj

Tom

[Iceaxe]

But here's a nugget for you - sounds like a new concept in your universe: http://bit.ly/HWYWFj

Best I can tell Slot Machine has been totally consistent, candid and honest in his approach, concept and integrity.

[Slot Machine]

But here's a nugget for you - sounds like a new concept in your universe: http://bit.ly/HWYWFj

Tom

Trade you a nugget? Perhaps a concept at the center of your universe: http://bit.ly/ICwDcP



Bob

[stefan]

For those playing along at home, let me explain the nuances between "secret", "sensitive" and "show don't tell" in regard to canyoneering.

Secret - A canyon that has been found, descended and never or rarely shared. Sometimes guide companies will take people through canyons that fall into this category; using the canyon as a business commodity of sorts.

Sensitive - A canyon environment that is easy to damage or at risk of being shut down by local authorities due to increased traffic and/or the actions of irresponsible canyoneers. Canyons on private property also fall into this category.

Show Don't Tell - A canyon that has been discovered, descended and then shared with others based on a solemn agreement to not disseminate information on said canyon. Back in the dark ages, the canyoneering community might have become outraged if a person violated this agreement. The reasons behind this outrage remain a mystery to historians and archeologists to this day. Since the advent of high resolution satellite imagery and websites that promote the widespread sharing of beta, "Show Don't Tell" is quickly becoming an archaic category.

since you're offering explanations and you're responding to tom's post ... i'm curious where does tom's issue with the ramifications of offering beta on routes with difficult route finding come in? i'm not seeing it on your list.

note: if there is any question, this is a sincere post

[Slot Machine]

where does tom's issue with the ramifications of offering beta on routes with difficult route finding come in?

Stefan,

I have no issue with Tom's approach to Lomatium/Krill. (Tom wasn't asked for beta, btw) Those routes ARE really difficult to describe, so offering beta is useless. You would literally need a movie of the routes to clearly portray them.

I do have an issue with the "show don't tell" philosophy, i.e. the secretive facet of canyoneering culture. Remeber the whole Dante's ordeal? Comparing the Dante's and Lomatium is really an Apples/Oranges comparison. The Dante's were "show don't tell" canyons, a ridiculous philosophy with unclear motives. Lomatium/Krill are in an environmentally sensitive area of a national park, and need to be treated carefully lest they be closed. My facetious definitions simply create the argument that Lomatium/Krill don't fall into the "show don't tell" category.

rrv is taking the responsible approach. Offering Colorado based beer should certainly get people motivated to help him.

Bob

[stefan]

Stefan,

I have no issue with Tom's approach to Lomatium/Krill. (Tom wasn't asked for beta, btw)
Those routes ARE really difficult to describe, so offering beta is useless. You would literally need a movie of the routes to clearly portray them.

ok, gotcha.

I do have an issue with the "show don't tell" philosophy, i.e. the secretive facet of canyoneering culture. Remeber the whole Dante's ordeal? Comparing the Dante's and Lomatium is really an Apples/Oranges comparison. The Dante's were "show don't tell" canyons, a ridiculous philosophy with unclear motives. Lomatium/Krill are in an environmentally sensitive area of a national park, and need to be treated carefully lest they be closed. My facetious definitions simply create the argument that Lomatium/Krill don't fall into the "show don't tell" category.

okay. but this leads me to ask what "show don't tell" really means. seems like it could extend beyond what you're referring to. like in this case you're agreeing that it's hard to "tell" the route. it seems like it's better to "show" the route. doesn't the term fit the bill?

Offering Colorado based beer should certainly get people motivated to help him.

right, that was brought up in the thread

[Slot Machine]

okay. but this leads me to ask what "show don't tell" really means. seems like it could extend beyond what you're referring to. like in this case you're agreeing that it's hard to "tell" the route. it seems like it's better to "show" the route. doesn't the term fit the bill?

No, IMO it doesn't fit the bill, because no agreement of secrecy needs to be made between rrv and whoever shows him those routes.

I have come to understand that "show don't tell" means you MUST make a deal in order to be shown a canyon. The deal is: I'll show you, but you don't tell anyone about the route or share photos with anyone- or risk being ostracized by my group, or the community at large. This is THE key distinction I'm trying to point out.

Moab Mark has generously offered to show rrv the Fiery Furnace routes; no strings attached.

I hope rrv posts a killer trip report and "tells" everything that he learns about the routes. Pretty much everyone knows they have to be "shown" the FF, but there should be no penalty points for "telling".

[jon.moab]

Hasn't this topic been hashed out recently........... Yet another worthless thread in the making!

[ratagonia]

I do have an issue with the "show don't tell" philosophy, i.e. the secretive facet of canyoneering culture. Remeber the whole Dante's ordeal? Comparing the Dante's and Lomatium is really an Apples/Oranges comparison. The Dante's were "show don't tell" canyons, a ridiculous philosophy with unclear motives.

Just because you, Bob, Machine of the Slots, don't understand and/or don't agree with a position does not make it ridiculous.

My answer "Integrity" was in response to the implied question of why someone would not share the beta on a canyon. The answer is, because they made an agreement not to, and they have integrity. That was all that was about - sorry it got misinterpreted. I did not mean to say YOU lacked integrity; please don't take it that way.

I have no problem with you not agreeing with the Show Don't Tell philosophy. Though I would like to understand why you think it is bogus, at a level higher than "because it is ridiculous".



Enjoy.

Gotta go do some new canyons and NOT post beta - its just what I do!

Tom

[Slot Machine]

I have no problem with you not agreeing with the Show Don't Tell philosophy. Though I would like to understand why you think it is bogus, at a level higher than "because it is ridiculous".

The "Show Don't Tell" philosophy is ridiculous because:

• People have be been bullied in an attempt to keep things secret. Sara T and myself are prime examples. "Show Don't Tell" might have been a fun concept, until people started getting mistreated. (I'm over it, just saying others shouldn't be treated this way in the future)

• There is no logical motive to keep canyons secret. I've looked hard at this from every angle. To keep bolts and trash out of canyons? Nah. To keep newbies from hurting themselves? Nope. Private property issues? Normally, no. To help preserve the canyon environment for future generations? Sounds really nice, but no. The motive remains a mystery to me.

• The availability of canyoneering beta is growing exponentially. "Show Don't Tell" fights this growth, wasting the time of those that seek beta. There is no point in fighting this growth.

Tom, I find it very perplexing that you have a business that benefits from this inevitable growth, but at the same time want to keep some beta secret. I'm not being snide, I'm viewing your approach from a business perspective and it just doesn't make any sense. There must be some personal reasons other than "I don't feel like sharing today". What are they?

What is the argument that "Show Don't Tell" is not ridiculous? What is the benefit of this philosophy to the canyoneering community?

Bob

[ratagonia]

The "Show Don't Tell" philosophy is ridiculous because:

• People have be been bullied in an attempt to keep things secret. Sara T and myself are prime examples. "Show Don't Tell" might have been a fun concept, until people started getting mistreated. (I'm over it, just saying others shouldn't be treated this way in the future)

• There is no logical motive to keep canyons secret. I've looked hard at this from every angle. To keep bolts and trash out of canyons? Nah. To keep newbies from hurting themselves? Nope. Private property issues? Normally, no. To help preserve the canyon environment for future generations? Sounds really nice, but no. The motive remains a mystery to me.

• The availability of canyoneering beta is growing exponentially. "Show Don't Tell" fights this growth, wasting the time of those that seek beta. There is no point in fighting this growth.

Tom, I find if very perplexing that you have a business that benefits from this inevitable growth, but at the same time want to keep some beta secret. I'm not being snide, I'm viewing your approach from a business perspective and it just doesn't make any sense. There must be some personal reasons other than "I don't feel like sharing today". What are they?

What is the argument that "Show Don't Tell" is not ridiculous? What is the benefit of this philosophy to the canyoneering community?

Bob

Cool, let's take your points one at a time.

"People have be been bullied in an attempt to keep things secret. Sara T and myself are prime examples. "Show Don't Tell" might have been a fun concept, until people started getting mistreated. (I'm over it, just saying others shouldn't be treated this way in the future)"

You call that bullying? Yes, it is unfortunate that Sara T did not have a clear vision of what the agreement was; and it is unfortunate that asking her to remove the indicative photos was done in a poor fashion; and it is unfortunate that Sara responded in an immature way to being called to the mat for not knowing what the agreement was.

Yes, to some extent making agreements at times leads to people misunderstanding their agreements, and people getting upset about these misunderstandings. Then again, misunderstandings occur all the time, around all sorts of issues, trivial and non-trivial. Welcome to life.

And YOU, Bob - Bullied???? Give me a frackin' break. What are you 7 years old? You didn't get your way whahhhhh whahhhh whahhhh - call the whambulance!!

"There is no logical motive to keep canyons secret. I've looked hard at this from every angle. To keep bolts and trash out of canyons? Nah. To keep newbies from hurting themselves? Nope. Private property issues? Normally, no. To help preserve the canyon environment for future generations? Sounds really nice, but no. The motive remains a mystery to me."

Here's some good reasons:

a. because the people who found and descended the canyon WANT to, CHOOSE to.
b. because published canyons get trashed. Litter, bolts, tons of webbing, rope grooves, human feces, helium balloons - oh wait, all canyons have helium balloons - rope grooves.
c. Yes, to keep noobies from hurting themselves. Noobies lack an imagination, and have trouble imagining canyons that are hard. Noobies sometimes wander into canyons they can't do. So far, we have kept most of the difficult canyons off the radar. Let's give it two years, Bob, and see how many rescues there are out in the Dante's, now that you have bullied us into releasing information on them.
d. Private property issues: can be big. There are only a few canyons on private land, but... low traffic = no problems, maybe, with the landowner. more traffic = landowner takes notice, and posts no-trespassing signs. Happened in the Oak Creek area, happens in other private land areas.
e. Public property issues: again, low traffic, the land manager does not even know about it. Higher traffic: land manager has to take notice, look for Mexican Owls, institute a permit system, etc.
f. To preserve the canyon environment - I'd say this is probably the #1 reason. If we hold the cards close to our chest, the canyons stay pretty much the way they are - pristine. A dozen, experienced, competent canyoneers a year going through a canyon has almost no effect on canyons. Scores of canyoneers of a variety of competences = trashing the canyon. This story has been repeated again and again.

from a quote I saw last month: "I can explain it for you, Bob. But I can't understand it for you." And perhaps we'll just disagree - politely or impolitely, your choice.

But let me add some more reasons:

g. because the people who have unpublished canyon information choose to do it that way. America - frack yeah!
h. because there are enough published canyons to keep people busy for a long time. There's plenty, why do you need more?
i. to preserve a sense of adventure and the unknown. Is the world really a better place when it is fully parsed out? Isn't this one of the prime interests of canyoneering, exploring some of the "last of the unknown"?
j. because not all places need to be the same. It is better for the environment, and better for land managers, and better for most individuals if OUR canyoneering is focused into a smaller set of canyons (than "all"). Kind of like zoning. Yes, the canyons in North Wash get crowded, but not too crowded. They can take it well. It's very social. And if Middle Lep is too crowded for you, go do Monkey Business, Shenanigans or Foolin' around - not much crowding in those, even though they are nearby and not difficult.

"The availability of canyoneering beta is growing exponentially. "Show Don't Tell" fights this growth, wasting the time of those that seek beta. There is no point in fighting this growth."

An odd argument - inevitability. Tilting at windmills has a long tradition among us environmentalists. The goal is to slow the train down and eventually stop it. We don't expect to stop it right now, we expect to lose more ground, but eventually the train will stop, and there *might* be some pristine terrain left when we get there.

"Tom, I find if very perplexing that you have a business that benefits from this inevitable growth, but at the same time want to keep some beta secret. I'm not being snide, I'm viewing your approach from a business perspective and it just doesn't make any sense."

I am a canyoneer first and a business person later. Canyoneering does not require lots of new beta to grow. As canyoneers mature, they realize that beta is not all that useful, that exploring new canyons is more fun, better. So canyoneers, except Shane, kinda naturally evolve into Show Not Tell canyoneers.

Or, another way to look at it, there are plenty of people out there doing new canyons, and sharing the beta. So, there's plenty of canyon beta out there, and there is plenty of new beta coming "on line" all the time.

So I don't really see why you continue to bully me and my friends. Other than the obvious, that you like bullying people.



Tom

[PG Rob]

What is the argument that "Show Don't Tell" is not ridiculous? What is the benefit of this philosophy to the canyoneering community?

Bob,

This is an attempt at an explanation for Show Don

[Slot Machine]

Cool, let's take your points one at a time.

"People have be been bullied in an attempt to keep things secret. Sara T and myself are prime examples. "Show Don't Tell" might have been a fun concept, until people started getting mistreated. (I'm over it, just saying others shouldn't be treated this way in the future)"

You call that bullying? Yes, it is unfortunate that Sara T did not have a clear vision of what the agreement was; and it is unfortunate that asking her to remove the indicative photos was done in a poor fashion; and it is unfortunate that Sara responded in an immature way to being called to the mat for not knowing what the agreement was.

Yes, to some extent making agreements at times leads to people misunderstanding their agreements, and people getting upset about these misunderstandings. Then again, misunderstandings occur all the time, around all sorts of issues, trivial and non-trivial. Welcome to life.

And YOU, Bob - Bullied???? Give me a frackin' break. What are you 7 years old? You didn't get your way whahhhhh whahhhh whahhhh - call the whambulance!!

"There is no logical motive to keep canyons secret. I've looked hard at this from every angle. To keep bolts and trash out of canyons? Nah. To keep newbies from hurting themselves? Nope. Private property issues? Normally, no. To help preserve the canyon environment for future generations? Sounds really nice, but no. The motive remains a mystery to me."

Here's some good reasons:

a. because the people who found and descended the canyon WANT to, CHOOSE to.
b. because published canyons get trashed. Litter, bolts, tons of webbing, rope grooves, human feces, helium balloons - oh wait, all canyons have helium balloons - rope grooves.
c. Yes, to keep noobies from hurting themselves. Noobies lack an imagination, and have trouble imagining canyons that are hard. Noobies sometimes wander into canyons they can't do. So far, we have kept most of the difficult canyons off the radar. Let's give it two years, Bob, and see how many rescues there are out in the Dante's, now that you have bullied us into releasing information on them.
d. Private property issues: can be big. There are only a few canyons on private land, but... low traffic = no problems, maybe, with the landowner. more traffic = landowner takes notice, and posts no-trespassing signs. Happened in the Oak Creek area, happens in other private land areas.
e. Public property issues: again, low traffic, the land manager does not even know about it. Higher traffic: land manager has to take notice, look for Mexican Owls, institute a permit system, etc.
f. To preserve the canyon environment - I'd say this is probably the #1 reason. If we hold the cards close to our chest, the canyons stay pretty much the way they are - pristine. A dozen, experienced, competent canyoneers a year going through a canyon has almost no effect on canyons. Scores of canyoneers of a variety of competences = trashing the canyon. This story has been repeated again and again.

from a quote I saw last month: "I can explain it for you, Bob. But I can't understand it for you." And perhaps we'll just disagree - politely or impolitely, your choice.

But let me add some more reasons:

g. because the people who have unpublished canyon information choose to do it that way. America - frack yeah!
h. because there are enough published canyons to keep people busy for a long time. There's plenty, why do you need more?
i. to preserve a sense of adventure and the unknown. Is the world really a better place when it is fully parsed out? Isn't this one of the prime interests of canyoneering, exploring some of the "last of the unknown"?
j. because not all places need to be the same. It is better for the environment, and better for land managers, and better for most individuals if OUR canyoneering is focused into a smaller set of canyons (than "all"). Kind of like zoning. Yes, the canyons in North Wash get crowded, but not too crowded. They can take it well. It's very social. And if Middle Lep is too crowded for you, go do Monkey Business, Shenanigans or Foolin' around - not much crowding in those, even though they are nearby and not difficult.

"The availability of canyoneering beta is growing exponentially. "Show Don't Tell" fights this growth, wasting the time of those that seek beta. There is no point in fighting this growth."

An odd argument - inevitability. Tilting at windmills has a long tradition among us environmentalists. The goal is to slow the train down and eventually stop it. We don't expect to stop it right now, we expect to lose more ground, but eventually the train will stop, and there *might* be some pristine terrain left when we get there.

"Tom, I find if very perplexing that you have a business that benefits from this inevitable growth, but at the same time want to keep some beta secret. I'm not being snide, I'm viewing your approach from a business perspective and it just doesn't make any sense."

I am a canyoneer first and a business person later. Canyoneering does not require lots of new beta to grow. As canyoneers mature, they realize that beta is not all that useful, that exploring new canyons is more fun, better. So canyoneers, except Shane, kinda naturally evolve into Show Not Tell canyoneers.

Or, another way to look at it, there are plenty of people out there doing new canyons, and sharing the beta. So, there's plenty of canyon beta out there, and there is plenty of new beta coming "on line" all the time.

So I don't really see why you continue to bully me and my friends. Other than the obvious, that you like bullying people.



Tom

Uh, wow. *The Mt. Carmel Jr High debate team cringes at your lack of tact & skill*

You could also scream "THE WORLD IS FLAT!!" from you rooftop and hope your neighbors believe you. Or type it in bold, if that is what you prefer.

Seriously...?? How am I in a position to bully anyone? I ask lots of questions, sometimes they go unanswered, that is OK with me. How could I coerce anyone into doing anything...? I'm certainly not a big scary guy and I don't know any canyoneering secrets.

If you feel that I've bullied you personally, or one your friends personally, I would like to clear that air immediately. I will send you a pm and you can email me.

Or we can hash it out here in the open.
I'm no bully, although I'll gladly stand up to one. I've got nothing to hide.

Bob

[ratagonia]

Thank you for the (off-Bogley) Olive Branch extended.

Yes, while Ram and I feel bullied (as you apparently also feel bullied), it is in fact not really you, Bob, who did most of the bullying. But, at least in cyber-land, your continuing verbal (typal?) abuse I think constitutes bullying.

=====

Excellent deflection, Bob. Your third-grade debate coach would be proud of you. Yes, when you have no response to the actual arguments, find some small piece of incivility or un-ordinary bit of presentation to play the victim to. VERY COMPELLING!

Is there a compelling reason for me to be civil with you? You seem to INSIST on not getting it, and being uncivil about it. It is true that hitting you with a larger verbal hammer is unlikely to produce a different result, but, I can hope that it at least entertains the troops here in the Bogley bleachers.

All bullies insist that they are not bullies. Being a bully is a natural response to living in a world full of bullies.



'nuff said?

Tom

[Iceaxe]

In canyoneering, Show, Don’t Tell is something that you grow into. It is the natural evolution of a canyoneer.

I TOTALLY disagree... Show don't tell is a system practiced by a small cadre of old gray beards, most of whom have never completely understood or embraced the interwebs and its power... but not to worry... father time will soon catch up with all the gray beards and they will all disappear into legend. And the young guys that grew up on the web and with a smart phone in their pocket will control the flow of information..... its inevitable.... show don't tell is doomed to eventual failure.

All bullies insist that they are not bullies. Being a bully is a natural response to living in a world full of bullies.

I visit Bogley to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum.

[PG Rob]

Shane,

You misunderstand me. I am the younger generation. I regularly seek and share beta... Ask Bob where the majority of the Super Amazing updates came from. I do see a value to show, don't tell and was attempting to answer Bob's question of what is the value. I agree that the beta will all be out there at some point in the future. Hopefully by that time I will have satisfied my own desire to discover the unknown (to me).

Rob

[ratagonia]

...
So I don't really see why you continue to bully me and my friends. Other than the obvious, that you like bullying people.



Tom

I overstate my case, my apologies to Bob. We often feel bullied; bullying is not always the intent. In the original thread, I consider Bob to be an innocent bystander, and whatever bullying was done (if any) was not done by Bob.

I feel the continued discussion of how much you loathe "Show don't tell" and how clueless you are to the benefits of it is bullying, and suggest that you have done this sufficiently to make your point. "Show Don't Tell" is part of the canyoneering culture, and every instance of the phrase being used is not a poke at you, Bob. I see how you think it is intended as taunting you, but let me assure you it is not.

At the beginning, Bob (has just told me) he thought I was Juan de Fuca, and therefore took umbrance at my request for an off-forum email correspondance. Amazing that this whole kerfuffle resulted from this one mis-communication - sad really. And unfortunate, both for us involved posters, and for the fans in the bleachers who got themselves soiled by the splash of ...

Tom

[Felicia]

...and for the fans in the bleachers who got themselves soiled by the splash of ...

I just entered this thread earlier this afternoon. I was not impressed. Actually, I was a bit angry and dismayed at the posturing from all sides. As the afternoon has progressed and posts have been added, I'm compelled to comment.

I can't think of a part of my life that I do not practice "show, don't tell". Actually, each of you are privy to a certain level of my person. None of you know all of me.

I do not see why canyoneering is so special as to be exempt from this behavior.

Shane is correct, with smart phones, cameras, FaceBook etc.; it is very easy to upload all sorts of information. If I spend the day with some friends doing something that I clearly state that I do not want to see posted on the interwebs, I would be very disappointed in the 'friend' that does not honor my request. And, I can assure you, that 'friend' would not be invited again on the next adventure.

Why is canyoneering any different? What has elevated canyoneering to the level of 'complete and unequivocal' disclosure?

I suggest that you gentlemen agree to disagree. Knowing each of your positions on this subject, act accordingly in the future as to not offend each other, but do not expect to persuade each from deviating from their convictions.


Felicia

[spinesnaper]

I can't believe we are back to this. How many pages were used up circling this topic in the last thread? Bob, I hope you spend at least as much time out canyoneering as posting on this subject. I personally have a long way to go before I will be ready to start looking around for secret hand shake canyons. I know there are tens of thousands of canyons out there. Hopefully by the time I am ready for them, Shane will have them carefully described on his website.

Ken