So... I'm leading my first canyon today

[DiscGo]

I failed him as a friend!

I was thinking that exact phrase when I was trying to get the rope untangled on Saturday :).

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop. I have been putting the rope in my North Face backpacking pack, and nothing specifically designed to drain water or carry rope.

I own some Yakima straps, and my current plan is to strap the rope before I put it away next time, but as usual I find @trackrunner 's suggestion to be valuable and will develop a solution before I go again, or I will just make @Deathcricket go with me again next time and learn from him.

Thanks guys.

[Eric Holden]

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop.

That is why it is getting coiled up and tangled. Wrapping it this way will cause the rope to coil up and especially for long rope, will cause it to get all tangley. Here is how I have always "Coiled" up my rope.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uwdLAKT1g">

[Brian in SLC]

I use a Imlay rope bag for most of my canyoning...but, when I don't, butterfly coil is by far the method I use to capture and carry a rope.

People develop their own specific method for gathering up a rope for transport. Interesting, and, sometimes painful, to watch...ha ha.

In the video above, Stephen does what a large percentage of climbers do to coil a rope. I don't like it for a couple of reasons...

Drives me a little batty sometimes, that, when pulling a rope in, folks just don't coil it while they're pulling it in. First they pull it into a little pile. Then, they fish around to find the other end. Then, they match ends, and, start coiling, but, since the rope is in a pile, they pull half of it from underneath, and, sometimes it clusters up. If they just coiled it as they pulled...yeah, done. You toss it on the ground ready to deploy, and, it feeds from one end, not like in the video where he gets near the end of stacking it for use, and, it clusters up a bit.

I'm not an over the shoulder butterfly coiler. Just don't like havin' a dirty rope on my neck. I just hold it in my hand. Not too hard.

Tangles happen.

By far the easiest way to manage a rope is to feed it loosely into a bag on top of itself. Easy in, easy out.

When you do an arm wrap, you're probably putting tension and a twist into it, and, it'll cluster more often than not. Butterfly coil keeps the rope loose for the most part.

[DiscGo]

I love this website!

Thanks for all the input!

[Deathcricket]

Yeap yeap! 2 great vids guys, that's pretty much exactly what I do except single stranded (like around 5:20 in Brians vid) and of course don't turn it into a backpack, just hang it from the top strap of my existing backpack.

Not really a fan of rope bags. My buddy @Deeps teases me mercilessly for it. :) They are nice don't get me wrong, especially when bushwhacking is involved, but they just take so long to load up. I've seen people hang them from their chin straps, chest, waist, etc, etc while loading... But I have yet to see an efficient way to pack them. it's like you gotta do it one foot at a time, vs the other way 6 feet at a time. Both guys in each video got theirs done in under 3 mins while even stopping to explain the procedure. I wonder if there is data on the load times some place. Someone should do a study.

[Iceaxe]

I have been using my arm to wrap the rope in a circle and then using the last couple of feet to keep it in the same loop.

FWIW: This is where your twists are coming from. If you coil you have to intentionally add a 1/2 twist to every coil so this doesn't happen.

If you don't have a rope bag you can use a second backpack as a rope bag. We often do this on shorter canyons like Pine Creek. We stuff one pack with all our gear and the second pack we just use as a rope bag. It works pretty sweet.

[bioject]

Virtually every nontechnora rope I've seen becomes stiff and difficult to work with. If you plan to do more Canyoneering in the future and can afford it, I recommend selling your current rope and getting a sterling c-Iv. It will last much longer and remains supple.

[hank moon]

Hi DiscGo - congrats on your first canyon lead! Pix?

Re: twists and such:

1. New ropes are generally twisty the first 5-10 (more or less) FULL LENGTH raps. Twisting due to newness will disappear with use.
2. The "garden hose coil" (wrap around elbow and capture with same hand) will twist the heck out of a rope. Proper use of a proper* rope bag is the most efficient way to manage the rope and avoid twists.

*ICG, yo :)

[DiscGo]

That is why it is getting coiled up and tangled. Wrapping it this way will cause the rope to coil up and especially for long rope, will cause it to get all tangley. Here is how I have always "Coiled" up my rope.

I really like this guys' technique.

[DiscGo]

I just watched this video. For those who use the rope / backpack technique do you still carrying your climbing bag on top of the rope backpack? Or do you have somebody else put your duct tape, ascending gear, knife, etc. in their bag?

[Eric Holden]

I don't know of anyone that wears the rope as a backpack when canyoneering. We always either bag it or put it into an actual back pack. This shows how to coil the rope up.

I do however use the back pack technique when rock climbing. Once you reach the top of the climb and have to descend class III choss back to the car, it is a great way to hold your rope. Most of the time, you do not have a back pack on so it works great!

[Brian in SLC]

I just watched this video. For those who use the rope / backpack technique do you still carrying your climbing bag on top of the rope backpack? Or do you have somebody else put your duct tape, ascending gear, knife, etc. in their bag?

Not sure I understand your question... If I'm not putting a rope into a dedicated rope bag, then, I still need to coil the rope unless I can drag it over to the next drop (a drop that's super close). If any distance, then, I can either toss it on over my pack and carry it that way, or, I can put it under the top lid (some packs have a strap specifically for a rope) or, can stuff it in my pack. Plenty of options. And, yeah, there's times when especially on a shorter canyon where you either don't need a pack, or, can get away with one person carrying a small pack in a small group, and the person who's sans pack can just wear the rope.

For me, the butterfly coil is just a fast and easy way to coil a rope, which also gives an option to carry it like a backpack.

[moab mark]

Disco,
Just buy one of Tom's rope bags, all problems will go away. Coiling is a pain in the butt in a Canyon. If you grew up a climber and are profiecient at coiling ok but for the rest of us a bag is the only way to go. 200' coiled rope and a 20' rappel just shoot me.

[Brian in SLC]

200' coiled rope and a 20' rappel just shoot me.

Actually fairly easy to deal with...take coil, unwrap holding the middle of the butterfly loops, peel off 40 feet of rope, re-coil, thread, toss, and go. Voila. No extra rope out. Fast, efficient.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Petzl Rope Bucket--regular size. $40 on sale.

http://www.karstsports.com/perobur41...FW1yQgodWD4A5w

I know it's no ICG silo, but it's a lot less expensive and with a few well placed grommets works great for me until I can afford the Lexus of rope bags.

[moab mark]

Actually fairly easy to deal with...take coil, unwrap holding the middle of the butterfly loops, peel off 40 feet of rope, re-coil, thread, toss, and go. Voila. No extra rope out. Fast, efficient.

Hope you don't only uncoil 35' before you toss. I'm not smart enough to even coil a rope correctly, you lost me at butterfly. I'll stick to bags.

[Iceaxe]

All things being equal I much prefer to coil. It's a lot faster and easier....

But the down side is it does take talent and a bit of a learning curve. Also because it takes some skillz if using coils I normally end up with rope duty. When we use a bag my kids get stuck with rope duty and I'm free to take pictures and play grabass....

[Brian in SLC]

Hope you don't only uncoil 35' before you toss. I'm not smart enough to even coil a rope correctly, you lost me at butterfly. I'll stick to bags.

Don't ya play that game, though? Its one of my fav's.

You eyeball the drop. Estimate the distance. Play out what you think is the perfect amount of rope. Toss. If the end barely grazes the ground, you win!

My arm length for rope is calibrated...ha ha... 40 feet is easy. That's 8 arm lengths. Bingo!

[hank moon]

Next bogley fest should have a rope mgmt. comp.

A decent bagger will beat the best coiler every time in overall rope management.

[Brian in SLC]

A decent bagger will beat the best coiler every time in overall rope management.

Decent? Nope. Good, maybe. Best coiler versus average bagger? My money's on the coiler.

Pine Creek speed descent? Interesting. The lads improved their times going to rope bags, for sure. But, toss and go with coils they still were so much faster than anyone else...

Fast and good is fast and good, no matter coil or bag.

Be fun to have a comp, though. Take the best bagger, and, the best coiler, time them, then, have them trade techniques. Best average time wins.

Fun to ponder, Hank! You and me gonna race? Ha ha...Pine Creek in three, two, one...(still haven't gone sub one hour yet...dang it, 1:01 is still my fastest time pavement-to-pavement).