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Thread: Deep groove in carabiner?

  1. #1

    Deep groove in carabiner?

    I recently rappelled a ~150' rappel (1st one of that day) on single strand using a fairly new Black Diamond Rocklock aluminum carabiner attached to my ATC. I weigh ~220 lbs., and the rappel was fairly slow and controlled. When I completed the rappel, I noticed the fairly deep groove in my carabiner, which made be a little bit worried about using an aluminum carabiner as my main carabiner for rappel. I usually do a double strand rappel, and never had anything close to this.
    1. Is this normal???
    2. I'm considering switching for a steel carabiner for my main ATC carabiner (~x3 weight DMM Steel BOA HMS)...any opinion?
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  4. #2
    1. Is this normal???
    If your carabiner is aluminum they can groove rather quickly, but this is especially true if the rope is wet and sandy.

    Was your rope wet and/or sandy?
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  6. #3
    I've been using the carabiner in the link below for about the last 10 canyons and there is very little wear. But my usual canyons are nowhere near as abrasive as those in the Plateau. The weight is about 1.7x your rock lock. I have not noticed much of a rappel smoothness difference between it and the Attache.

    http://www.scarpa.com/edelrid/hms-bruce-steel-fg

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  8. #4
    that seems to be a lot of grooving for one rappel to me. I use an aluminum biner with my rap device and have done several rappels on it and the grooving is much less than that picture.

    I try as hard as possible to keep the sand out of my rope for this reason.... but it is, at times, a losing battle..

    YMMV

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  10. #5
    X2 to Deagol
    It is CRAZY what a sandy rope will do to biners and devices...

  11. #6
    The thicker canyon ropes that Tom makes, like the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm Rope, cause really deep grooves really quickly.

  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    The thicker canyon ropes that Tom makes, like the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm Rope, cause really deep grooves really quickly.
    Don't know about that.

    What I do know is that wet sand embedded into rope makes a very efficient grinding tool when you rappel on it. I now have retired many biners and rap devices with notches like this. Once I hit about 1/3 of the way through, even though it is body weight, I feel it's a good time to replace the gear. All gear in the field is an expendable. I personally can't bring myself to use a steel biner but these hold up much better than soft aluminum, or so I am told. I guess you could also buy a steel rappel device but that all seem like a whole lot of weight. So I just keep an eye on the gear and remove and replace it when it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

    Ken

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  14. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    The thicker canyon ropes that Tom makes, like the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm Rope, cause really deep grooves really quickly.
    In theory, a smaller diameter should cut more efficiently due to higher pressure (pressure = force/area). The smaller the diameter, the higher the pressure. It's why dental floss is banned in some prisons because of its utility as an escape tool.

    In reality, dunno. Maybe larger diameter = more sand per foot = more cutting power? Would be interesting to test some extremes and see what happens. Super stiff old ICG 8mm vs. a soft 9 mm rope such as Sterling C-IV or even a 10 mm dynamic, both coated in wet sand.

    hank (posing as Felicia)
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  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Don't know about that.
    Once I hit about 1/3 of the way through, even though it is body weight, I feel it's a good time to replace the gear.
    1/3 !!! From an engineer's viewpoint, that's not a good idea. Your life should be worth more than that.

  16. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia View Post
    In theory, a smaller diameter should cut more efficiently due to higher pressure (pressure = force/area). The smaller the diameter, the higher the pressure. It's why dental floss is banned in some prisons because of its utility as an escape tool.

    In reality, dunno. Maybe larger diameter = more sand per foot = more cutting power? Would be interesting to test some extremes and see what happens. Super stiff old ICG 8mm vs. a soft 9 mm rope such as Sterling C-IV or even a 10 mm dynamic, both coated in wet sand.

    hank (posing as Felicia)
    In use, Tom's thicker canyoneering ropes have FAR more friction and resistance than his skinnier ropes. All I know is I did Checkerboard Canyon with two fairly new carabiners and the thicker 9.2 mm rope of Tom's, and both carabiners were destroyed by the end, but I've been using the skinnier 8 mm rope of Tom's for over a year and haven't seen nearly as much grooving.

  17. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    In use, Tom's thicker canyoneering ropes have FAR more friction and resistance than his skinnier ropes. All I know is I did Checkerboard Canyon with two fairly new carabiners and the thicker 9.2 mm rope of Tom's, and both carabiners were destroyed by the end, but I've been using the skinnier 8 mm rope of Tom's for over a year and haven't seen nearly as much grooving.
    I hear ya. what kind of rap device?

    hank the poser
    Some people "go" through life and other people "grow" through life. -Robert Holden

  18. #12
    Qedcook have you noticed faster device wear, or just on the carabiners? Wondering if 9mm stiffness helps concentrate pressure on the 'biner...

  19. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_outdoors View Post
    1/3 !!! From an engineer's viewpoint, that's not a good idea. Your life should be worth more than that.
    I guess I am more extreme than I thought.

  20. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Qedcook have you noticed faster device wear, or just on the carabiners? Wondering if 9mm stiffness helps concentrate pressure on the 'biner...
    Faster device wear in general. Both the carabiners and the ATC were deeply grooved. Only one side of the ATC was badly grooved though, the brake side. I can post a pic if you guys want.

    I got the 9.2 mm rope because I wanted more friction, but the 8 mm canyoneering rope feels like it provides as much friction, for me, as a 10 mm climbing rope.

    This isn't a negative review on Tom's canyoneering ropes in general, just on the 9.2 mm version. I LOVE the 8 mm version!

  21. #15
    I've done that much damage several times in one rap. Sure gets your attention the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_outdoors View Post
    1/3 !!! From an engineer's viewpoint, that's not a good idea. Your life should be worth more than that.
    Meh. Biners are tough. I go 1/2 through before replacing. I seem to remember somebody weight testing a grooved biner a while back and it held something like 90% of the original kN's.

    Don't bother with a steel biner. They are too heavy and just one more thing to worry about. I my groups we shuffle our biners around so much that I probably use a different biner for every rappel. Just try to groove your friend's biners when you can.
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  23. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    If your carabiner is aluminum they can groove rather quickly, but this is especially true if the rope is wet and sandy.

    Was your rope wet and/or sandy?
    X2 on that question.

    Note that device wear in sandstone canyons is mostly a function of how the rope is handled. Most canyons that have water have pools of water. Use a rope bag and feed the rope straight out of the water and into the bag. This keeps sandiness to a minimum. Some canyons are mostly just "damp" (Spry comes to mind) and these are the worst for chewing up gear. When water is lacking, squeegee the rope through (leather) gloved hands before the rope goes into the bag.

  24. #17
    Trying to keep the rope out of the sand, especially when wet really helps, but sometimes its unavoidable. Some devices will wear biners more than others, I used an SBG for a couple of years and went through a biner each year, with the metal on metal. Finally switched to a Rock Exotica Assault Stainless carabiner for my rappel device, heavier and pricey, but maybe the ultimate bomber biner.

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  26. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rick t View Post
    Trying to keep the rope out of the sand, especially when wet really helps, but sometimes its unavoidable. Some devices will wear biners more than others, I used an SBG for a couple of years and went through a biner each year, with the metal on metal. Finally switched to a Rock Exotica Assault Stainless carabiner for my rappel device, heavier and pricey, but maybe the ultimate bomber biner.
    That sound about 4 times as expensive as my soft petzl biners. You probably still win because it probably last more than 4 of my biners. I personally have not figured out how to keep the sand off my rope in the plateau. In fact, I am fairly sure that is basically impossible.

    Ken

  27. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    I've done that much damage several times in one rap. Sure gets your attention the first time.



    Meh. Biners are tough. I go 1/2 through before replacing. I seem to remember somebody weight testing a grooved biner a while back and it held something like 90% of the original kN's.

    Don't bother with a steel biner. They are too heavy and just one more thing to worry about. I my groups we shuffle our biners around so much that I probably use a different biner for every rappel. Just try to groove your friend's biners when you can.

    Why do you shuffle carabiners around on your rappel device?

  28. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_outdoors View Post
    1/3 !!! From an engineer's viewpoint, that's not a good idea. Your life should be worth more than that.
    Are you an engineer?

    THIS engineer (mechanical engineering, B.S., 1982) thinks engineering is about UNDERSTANDING systems. I have the advantage of having seen 1000's of broken biners in my time at Black Diamond, and having seen the FEA of carabiners under development. There are critical locations on carabiners that you should have concern about compromising, but the basket, where the rope runs, is not one of them. I don't have too much concern about rope grooves from rappelling, and also use the "1/3 rule".

    However, I have also seen a carabiner cut half way through on a 100' rappel, when conditions were perfectly bad. Matter of fact, that was two carabiners under an ATC, and both carabiners were chewed pretty good. If I had only one biner, would it have cut all the way through?

    A good reason to use FAT carabiners like the Petzl Attache carabiner. And check it after every rappel.

    Tom

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