View Poll Results: What is the best device for rappelling?
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Results 21 to 40 of 48
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09-12-2012, 05:59 PM #21
HMMMMMM. What rock climbing did you do and NOT rappel? All basic rock climbing classes teach how to rappel.
Don't worry about devise, worry about human (error). Like Hank said, get out and practice, practice, practice. Start nooby on belay or fireman belay. Then practice.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likeshank moon liked this post
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09-12-2012 05:59 PM # ADS
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09-12-2012, 06:12 PM #22
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09-12-2012, 06:41 PM #23
Can we have a laugh at the poll now?
I wish you would have included "man hands" or "nipple ring" in the survey just to see if they beat the GriGri. Piranha is spelled... oh nevermind.
To be helpful, the ATC-XP is my current favorite, followed closely by the Piranha. On a really fat rope (10.8mm) the ATC-XP hops and is quite scary. When using the Canyon Fire (8.3mm) it works great.
When rapping double stranded with a Piranha, occasionally one of the ropes will slip off one of the horns and is a little disconcerting. I've never had the rope creep at the top or anything, but when I'm hanging there my eyes are looking up at the ropes as I move.
Single stranded the Piranha is great but twists the rope a bit.
My wife really likes the good old fashioned ATC. She is very light, so the minimal friction works great for her.THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 LikesUdink liked this post
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09-12-2012, 06:53 PM #24
x2 on practicing in low stress areas. Having somebody start in water can be a little nerve racking. I always take my friends up rock canyon here in the Provo area because there are easy to get to rappel anchors and more controllable situations. As far as device? lots of stuff works
- Gavin
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09-12-2012, 08:27 PM #25
Petzl Pirana is my device of choice. My wife prefers her ATC.
Here is a sub-poll: When using an 8, do you loop around the neck or clip the loop into the carabiner?
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09-12-2012, 08:41 PM #26
Re: What is the safest and easiest rappelling device?
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09-12-2012, 10:20 PM #27
IMO an 8 is better than an ATC for a pure noob, some people don't like the 8s because after a lot of use they tend to mess up the sheathing on your rope. But if you want a basic , slow rap. An 8 will be even slower than an ATC.
I have the Mammut Alpine Belay device an ATC and an 8. I find myself just rapping off my 8 most of the time.
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09-13-2012, 10:47 AM #28
Clipping the 'biner is considered essential in class C to avoid accidental girth hitch formation, which has resulted in death (drowning, hypothermia). The Pirana was developed to alleviate this problem, as well as the aforementioned carabiner failure mode.
An 8 is not the best choice for a beginner b/c it has the above failure modes which other devices (Pirana, ATC) don't have.
If you need more friction on an ATC, you can use two carabiners to attach the device to the harness, or extend, or z-rig, etc. This provides more than enough (note: can be too much) friction for most users.
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09-13-2012, 12:49 PM #29
Thanks to Hank for his wise voice, insight and message. He should be a counselor, NO, a politician.
I've been involved with many youth (and adults) over the past decade, in rap training. Going to take a newbie out on a venture? Do some "down home" practice first! Some that are very athletic, have a mindset that a firemans is going to absolve any concern and that pick up the practice fast - can adapt in a canyon setting. But for most, I'd practice away from the canyons and in a quiet controlled setting. AND I'd show the person how to wrap the rope around their back and leg to come to a STOP position, and show them what happens when a leg biner is used; and what happens (with an ATC) when two identical biners are used. Let them learn about friction and what happens when the rope is heavy (top of a rap vs. bottom of a rap). Another matter - rope, slope, weight. What ropes are you going to use. If beefy double strand 9, some folk have difficulty in putting the rope through and in going down a line on an ATC. (I use ATC's a lot). Anyway, plan ahead, practice on different ropes, 8, 9, double, single strand...and do it first simply walking back from a tree for example, on flat ground. Accidents happen and some folk turn their backs on events after too much trama. (same thing happens in some relationships.) Good luck in the canyons, and of course with your partner.....I'd make certain the big or tiny terror ramps way down before the trip, OR, I'd not have her or you go at all. Not worth the short or long term consequence.
If using an 8, double strand, I'd probably go with an ATC XP; If going with a 9 single strand, the same. If using a 9, double strand, I might try an Omega Pacific SBG (bigger port for the line). OR with double strand 9, maybe a pirana? BUT, I'd have her practice all of these out first (at home) before making a final decision, and there, SHE can be involved in the decision making process.
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Post Thanks / Like - 3 Likes
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09-13-2012, 01:12 PM #30
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09-13-2012, 06:29 PM #31
I am a Pirana guy. No fussing with clipping on and off the device. Seems like I have to re-teach the ATC more often than the Pirana. Noobs like to add A LOT of friction too.
Life is Good
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09-14-2012, 07:21 AM #32
I have used most types of rappel devices, including the 4 carabiner thing, and even a munter hitch, but I <3 my Pirana.
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09-14-2012, 08:09 AM #33
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09-14-2012, 09:06 AM #34
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likeshank moon liked this post
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09-15-2012, 09:26 PM #35
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09-15-2012, 09:36 PM #36
What Hank said...
To me, the most important aspect is to train using exactly one device, the device YOU know backwards forwards upside down etc.
First training should be done far away from any cliff. The cliff creates fear - fear is the mind killer. By training away from any source of stress, the noob will then have training to reach for and apply when they are becoming overwhelmed by fear.
Personally, I think the Pirana is the easiest to train people on. ATC-XP is good, but the progressive modes of friction are complicated.
You will also want to standardize on a specific style (ie, speed) of rope. No reason to complicate things by having to learn the correct setting for two different rope styles.
1950's style Figure of Eight has the carabiner-breaking mode that kills the rappeller - hard to say how many deaths a year result from this. It also tends to be a low-friction device (compared to a Pirana or ATC-XP) so is unlikely to be suitable for use with modern USA canyoneering ropes - at least, any rope that I make.
The ATC has a 'common'-death-error. Last I looked, it kilt about 3 people a year in the USA. It is the miss-clipping-both-ropes with the carabiner thing, and in many cases, the dying climber also takes the ropes with him (or her)! Bad juju. (clarification: miss-clipping one of the two ropes)
The Pirana has a 'common'-surprise-error too. On awkward rappel starts, with the rope unweighted and the device bouncing around some, the rope can come out from around one or both horns, so when the rappeller puts their weight onto the rope, they get WAY less friction than they expect. WATCHOUT for this. In these circumstances, it is a good idea to check the setting of the Pirana just before plopping one's weight onto the device. A bottom belay is a good preventive action when the rappel start is awkward.
Tom
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09-15-2012, 09:42 PM #37
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09-16-2012, 07:52 AM #38
Interesting inputs...
Because I spend more time climbing, I prefer an ATC (in any form) for rappelling as its the device that a climber will have for belaying too. And, teaching someone to rappel on an ATC translates well with them learning to belay too (same device, hand position, cautions about brake hand, etc).
Figure eight, for canyons, has kinda gone the way of the dodo a bit. Useful to know as some of us carry them for contigency rigging so they'll be available for backing up a ATS or Pirana. Figure eight in standard sizes has way less friction, IMHO, than any ATC.
Kinda depends on rope diameter and whether there's water flow or not (ie, water flow into a pool). For most stuff around Zion, I think either an ATC or Pirana/ATS can work, with matching to a rope diameter maybe as important. Sending a beginner rappeller down on a single strand of 8mm Canyon pro with a Pirana might be bad.
Concur on the mileage comments. Until someone looks competant, I'd belay them.
Another deal...I think learning how to rappel is as or more important than whatever device is used. I think it can be hard to teach, and, hard to learn. Given all the options for rap devices, rigging for additional friction options, steepness, rope diameter...it can be both hard to impart knowledge and hard to figure it out.
Be safe out there!
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
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09-17-2012, 10:27 AM #39
OK, not only Hank, but Shane, Tom and Brian have stars on their head for their acumen in this area. I guess the message is that there are different views and that safety trumps most everything.
There are different angles though to the process. Who participates in the climbing, caving or canyon game and once they commit, who and what should teach them, just what basic elementary processes? And is the commercial guiding instruction the same as private?
Some people that are way scared, or pyschologically challenged when on rope, need to be treated differently in my view. A simple device - pirana - that is run single strand, with the knowledge that a firemans will be "below". This works for a lot of them.
Other's though/ and I think that includes most, want/need to understand the concept of friction; and in a practice setting visually see what happens when a rope slides single strand or double strand through a variety of devices. Here you have folk of potentially various sizes (weight) and they then learn/decide what might best work for them - or least they see alternatives.
The flip side of all this is for a group of 12 to show up in Moab and the first rap is over Morning Glory Arch; Adults are given a figure 8 and the rope is run single strand through the device. Part way down the adult riders scream - need more friction.
I've heard all about it from adults I live near or work with. I ask them, did your leaders ever show you other devices and talk with you about friction? They always say NO.
In a commercial setting, or in water canyons, I guess the pirana is an easy device to teach.
In a back yard setting or crag wall though, with picnic tables (where you can show gear) and bolts/trees where you can hook ropes, folk can in they wish, try out different devices and run them both single and double strand. And they are shown how to stop if need be.
In a commercial setting, I believe I understand that folk need to be "treated" differently. Outside of that though, if there is time and interest, many folk really want to learn a whole host of tricks and options, and this pyschologically in my view, heightens their attention and causes them to pay attention - privately - to safe efficient friction when setting up and sliding down ropes.
Also, matching devices to ropes. (rope, slope, weight) If using skinny 8m lines single strand lines and five folk are lined up with all different weights. What device should they use. The single one they were trained on? The pirana? If there is a firemans below, then it's all academic? (Doesn't always work that way though in my view). If folk are on a long (100 ft or more) free hang, they can be comfortable and efficient or they can be distressed and can't get down the rope or they are sliding too fast (in their mind) even with a firemans. I've seen this happen too many times.
Training methods differ. Time allocated, circumstances, commerical, private. The original post related to training a family member. I viewed that as private training. I'd try to educate the person, show easy options in an effort to calm the psychological bar and then proceed as far as the victim (no trainee) senses they want to go. I understand, some will start and then stay with a pirana....but if you have a person that wants to learn....then my, the bounds of creativity remain to be unexplored.
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09-17-2012, 08:29 PM #40
For noobs I prefer the ATC-XP, just because it's so simple and really easy to check. I still find myself using it the majority of the time, especially on double strand raps.
--Cliff
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