Results 41 to 60 of 98
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02-22-2012, 10:28 AM #41
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02-22-2012 10:28 AM # ADS
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02-22-2012, 10:28 AM #42
As the last person down, in this situation, there would be no problem going double strand.
The problems arise when on a trip with a new canyoneer, how to best protect them.
Having options(contingencies) is always good. Leaving the pull side of a system open for potential "help" could be
as/more problematic than anticipated. One sets himself up for many disastrous scenarios if not trained/experienced in these type events.
Upon ascending to victim, what if you unweight him from his strand of rope??? (just something I hope the OP had in mind with leaving this type contingency in place.
Canyoneering is generally a common sense, uncomplicated endeavor. As in this example, I simple firemans belay would have alleviated any heartache and re-acuring nightmares.
It really IS That Simple. Now if the new canyoneer is not competent at rigging their own device each time, the equation changes again.
The facts are--Firemans or Video, the wrong choice was made.
Thanks for sharing your experience dsr
Rubio is a fun, short, very low flow canyon(generally)
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02-22-2012, 10:49 AM #43
Glad everything turned out OK.
A couple comments about autoblocs.
We use them at ZAC for guiding, and I know ATS uses them too, and teaches them. I NEVER use an autobloc for personal canyoneering (but I am "old school"). When teaching canyoneering classes, I encourage people to wean off the autobloc as soon as possible.
Using an Autobloc, one surmises that it is OK to let go of the rope at any time. After doing this a few times, it can become a habit, one that is hard to lose. On a trip a few years ago, without Autoblocs, a friend of a friend who had mostly used autoblocs let go to block a swing, and thankfully/amazingly got his hand back on the rope while he still could. I am STILL thankful. Therefore, while knowing and having an Autobloc is a good thing, I think people should get away from them as soon as possible, and get into the "NEVER let go of the rope" mode as early in their canyoneering career as possible.
I would also like to point out that Matt did not have an Autobloc on this rappel. An Autobloc is something that works (ie, grabs the rope when someone lets go), and what he had was a not-Autobloc. I have seen many people use a not-Autobloc to make themselves or someone else more comfortable. Presumeably they were under the impression that what they were rigging would work.
Autoblocs are somewhat difficult to rig correctly, and can be quite cantankerous. We have the advantage in guiding in that we use the same ropes day in day out, the same autoblocs, and have extensions available when needed (but they are still cantankerous). When guiding, we teach people how to rig their autobloc at the first rappel, and how to test it to make sure it works (grabs the rope); and during the next couple of raps we hope that various (not-on-rappel) 'problems' will crop up (such as clipping to the gear loop rather than the leg loop) so that we can use these as teaching moments. Of course, we watch them like a hawk, every time. By the end of the day, most clients over the age of 10 will have the autobloc down, and can rig themselves quickly and confidently without supervision (which is there nonetheless).
The point: I encourage folks, when they take their friends out, to NOT "rig their friends up", but to carefully and thoroughly train their friends in how to use the equipment, make sure it is working properly, and make sure that they are using the gear correctly. It takes only a few minutes more, if that, and increases the safety of the group, both that day and into the future. I also think it makes the experience of canyoneering much richer for the friends being "taken".
Tom
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02-22-2012, 10:53 AM #44
To add to what Tom said, having the last person rap single strand allows someone to (more easily) ascend back up and help that person should they become stranded. As you noted, the contingency anchor cannot be operated for the last person. So, the only reasonable way to help this stuck/unconscious person would be to ascend back up to them. The rescuer can then help them become unstuck, pick them off, or ascend to the top and re-rig for lower.
That said, the last person down will still take out the block and go double when there is the possibility of snagginess on the pull.
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02-22-2012, 10:57 AM #45
Someone mentioned that one has to "let go" of the autobloc in order for it to grab the rope and stop a fall.
I realize this is a significant, known problem for the prusik "above". My experience with an autobloc below is that with any significant speed of rope running through it, the autobloc with grab and stop the fall, no matter how much the rappeller fights it. Although this may be more of a "edjumacted guess", since we do not test these things on a regular basis; but it takes careful management of the Autobloc in order to keep it running down the rope. If your Autobloc does not require careful tending, may I suggest it might be a not-Autobloc.
Tom
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02-22-2012, 11:01 AM #46
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02-22-2012, 11:10 AM #47
As far as taking friends go. I got almost all of my current group into canyoneering and never used an autobloc with any of them. I always take them rappeling before I take them to a canyon to make sure they have that part down. In the canyon I always make sure they had a fireman's belay from the bottom. I've had a few lose control before and the belay works fine. I think the autobloc can be tricky to get right and a bigger pain than a help. My opinion. Also, keeps people from getting dependent on it like Tom mentioned. I guess with guiding you might be taking people who have no experience and the autobloc could be useful...
- Gavin
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02-22-2012, 11:42 AM #48
another thought on not using an autoblock for me: it would not allow me to add friction or lock off my rappel device since I need the brake strand "mobile" to be able to do that. In other words, having brake strand attached to my leg loop would not allow me to wrap it around the device for added friction and lock off.
Also, I have noticed in the past when experimenting with leg loop attachments that the stress it puts on the leg loop doesn't seem to align well with the direction the leg loop is assembled. To state this another way, the cord or biner pulling up on the leg loop sort of seems to want to pull the stitching apart where the leg loop is sewn together infront. This would make more sense with a photo, but perhaps others have noticed this as well ?
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02-22-2012, 12:48 PM #49
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02-22-2012, 12:58 PM #50
Edit: Shows the incorrect rigging I mentioned in the first post. The 'biner (C) outside the leg loop (A) with the buckle (B) in between.
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02-22-2012, 01:28 PM #51
Caption? Explanation?
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02-22-2012, 01:31 PM #52
Gavin got me into canyoneering, and I agree with him. I've never had a need for an autoblock, even when going down first. You just be careful and take it easy, and when I teach people to rappel, I also make sure they have a fireman belay, and one of the first things I tell them is that they NEVER let go of the rope with their brake hand. For the most part they just look obnoxious.
--Cliff
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02-22-2012, 02:00 PM #53
"Locking off" and "adding friction" are functions the Autobloc does well, therefore, it is unlikely you would think of using another method of adding these functions, when they are easily done with the Autobloc.
I am not trying to "sell" or encourage use of the Autobloc. It is a useful tool, with advantages and disadvantages.
I do, however, discourage use of the not-Autobloc.
T
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02-22-2012, 02:23 PM #54
Yeah, you can do a contingency from below and I almost typed out how to do it in the earlier post. However, it requires more rope, and is complicated, and nobody does it. That's why I just left the post the way it was.
Uhhh, not the way I do it. It only results in a bad thing if you screw it up! I assume this is a case of us misunderstanding each other because you are speaking canyonese and I am speaking caveish. I actually have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it is ACA lingo?
In my world, a pickoff is when you ascend up past the patient (we don't call 'em victims until they're dead), attach a lowering device to your upper ascender, attach the patient to the end of the rope, thread the rope through the lowering device, lock it off, transfer the patient's weight to the lower, and lower away. There is more to it than that, but this is just the "we've already hijacked the thread quick version." Do not attempt without more information.
What are you calling a regular pickoff? Are you talking about ascending up the pull side? If so, then agreed, that would have a bad result.
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02-22-2012, 02:46 PM #55
A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.
From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.
Tom
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02-22-2012, 02:57 PM #56
Hmm, that's interesting. I guess I don't know how that works , unless it means that just simply having a working autoblock accomplishes increasing friction and locking off. I guess that makes sense.
To the bolded, I use a Totem and add friction by wrapping the brake strand around the upper portion- works very well. I would not be able to do that if the brake strand were held down low by an autoblock. Also, locking off is just an additional (yet different) "wrap" through the biner and back over the top. It works sweet. One additional thing, on something like a 2-stage rappel, it is nice to be able to decrease friction when walking from the bottom of the 1st drop to the top of the 2nd drop. Baily Canyon has a rap like this.
I hope we are not hijacking the thread, but it does seem relevant, especialy the adding friction part. In the same canyon, I used the friction added mode on a free-hanging rappel and it was super easy to hold myself in position with minimal grip on the brake strand. It was also smooth going down the rope. Having a good rap device makes things a lot better, IMO.
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02-22-2012, 06:23 PM #57
My thinking was not to do a pickoff under any circumstances. It was either to free him if stuck or go to the top and lower. I have practiced a regular pickoff to my strand when coming from my usual top position but have never needed it in canyon. I am well equipped and have been doing this a while, but I have never practiced and don't even have the gear to transfer to the blocked line under load.
The bigger problem comes when you don't do the simple things like a fireman's belay and instead video for vanity.
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02-22-2012, 06:51 PM #58
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02-23-2012, 07:11 AM #59
Agreed. The advice I got (and give) in rescue training is to not even attempt a pickoff in a real situation unless you have successfully practiced one in the previous two months. This is a technique you have to have down as second nature or you can end up with two stranded people real quick.
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02-23-2012, 11:01 AM #60
The learning curve.
Pick off. Theoretically, if a third party or group had been above, and the rapper had been stuck, the other group with a second rope could descend down, tie off, reconnect the other party and rap down with both attached. In the example as is, the photog would have ascended the pull line (I agree) and once there, could have rigged a system to unweight the rapper from his device. But then just what? Normally in a pick off A is above rescued party B, and B then attached to A as they both descend. If B is attached to a stiff rope though, how does A, (that comes to the rescue, and is above him/her) attach a rap device to that taut line? I guess A attches himself to A, let's the rap device stay on B, but A is the one holding and feeding the line as they drop? Or, is there other techique that exists? Or maybe A goes to the top of the line, rigs another block on his side and then down and goes for the pick off, lowering on the line that he just went up. (absent others above, he then has to go back up and release one or both of the blocks)
(I have been in involved in pick offs to release folk that were stuck. Rapping down a 2nd rope, or going down a pull cord line (after blocking it). The lowering has always occured below me and on my line & on my device.)
_________
The emporer offers:
A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.
From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.
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