SUGGESTIONS! For Coyote Buttes area

[Philippe]

Phillipe,
I didn't dare drive on that road, but from what I was told, if the rangers catch you with photo gear (meaning, you are not a ranger and do not have administrative rights for driving on that road), you are in for some trouble. The guys I met hadn't unpacked their photo gear and just told the rangers that they were on a joy drive on that road :-) They also told me that they didn't see any signs forbidding travel on that road.
From what I heard, the rangers are strictly implementing that policy (I was told by a ranger at the Bigwater Visitor center that the fine was $300). May be, since Kane County recently won a road maintenance lawsuit, BLM has upped the ante on the roads which are legally within its complete jurisdiction. But whoever I met in Kanab and Page, people are darned pi**ed about these policies.
Arindam

Thank you for that answer. It's a shame that they close BLM 431, at is is not only an access for the Wahweap Hoodoos but also for some other nice Hoodoos on a side dirt road from BLM 431 (west of Wahweap wash).

I feel that it is dishonest from the rangers not to put any signs at the entrance of BLM 431 telling that it is forbidden and then to ask for a fine of $300 to somebody caught on this road. Maybe this hidden closure is also a way for them to make easy money for the BLM...

Philippe

[americanhero]

It's a shame that they close BLM 431, at is is not only an access for the Wahweap Hoodoos but also for some other nice Hoodoos on a side dirt road from BLM 431 (west of Wahweap wash).

Philippe, I totally agree.
Especially the lovely Hoodoos nearby in all their different shapes and sizes are so beautiful to see. They make the area so unique.
I'm kind of disappointed right now...

[Philippe]

Philippe, I totally agree.
Especially the lovely Hoodoos nearby in all their different shapes and sizes are so beautiful to see. They make the area so unique. I'm kind of disappointed right now...

Yes, all these hoodoos located in what we call the Sidestep canyon, Rainbow Valley, White Valley... I planned to return there during my next trip because I visited these places in the early 2000's (searching for the location of the Wahweap hoodoos that was a secret at that time, but we founded it !) but I never returned to some of these places so I have no digital pictures of them (only some paper snapshots). I will cancel this visit as I don't want to pay a $300 fine and to be bannished from the parks ! Fortunately, I've already returned to the Wahweap hoodoos with a digital camera so I have decent pictures of this very nice place.

Philippe

[blueeyes]

at least you made the best of it and tried.
And guess what? Now you have a reason to come back and try again

Since the kids and I are so close we have already decided to go back we kinda liked that camp spot. They love anything near water so we will make another trip before it is to HOT to enjoy. Not sure I will worry about Wave permits at this time. I can wait on that one. Lots of other things to see and do.

Not so funny...

I don't think Alison took a picture of the Great White (her pathfinder) but I agree not so funny. At least the day you have to drive in it. Now the further you get away from it. It starts to become amusing.

[arindam]

Phillipe,

There's still a way to get to these places (Sidestep), from Lower White Rocks, which you access from Bigwater. That was what I was told by BLM and also a local guide. But the hike is pretty strenuous and time consuming. I was too bummed out to try that.

I don't remember who said this to me (a BLM ranger or a local guide), but it's now (or, could be) a federal felony for trespassing on federal lands.

Arindam

Yes, all these hoodoos located in what we call the Sidestep canyon, Rainbow Valley, White Valley... I planned to return there during my next trip because I visited these places in the early 2000's (searching for the location of the Wahweap hoodoos that was a secret at that time, but we founded it !) but I never returned to some of these places so I have no digital pictures of them (only some paper snapshots). I will cancel this visit as I don't want to pay a $300 fine and to be bannished from the parks ! Fortunately, I've already returned to the Wahweap hoodoos with a digital camera so I have decent pictures of this very nice place.

Philippe

[arindam]

Well, as I was told, I could still make the 10-11 mile round trip hike to Wahweap Hoodoos from Bigwater. That's beyond me, so I guess all those who can make the hike are environmentally conscious and would protect the fragile hoodoos. Those who are unable to make the hike have no business seeing those.

wow, that sounds really serious...
At least I have a couple of pics, visited the area several times. But it's very frustrating as well.
Because I love to visit places like Rainbow Valley and the other Hoodoo areas nearby.

[ratagonia]

Phillipe,

I didn't dare drive on that road, but from what I was told, if the rangers catch you with photo gear (meaning, you are not a ranger and do not have administrative rights for driving on that road), you are in for some trouble. The guys I met hadn't unpacked their photo gear and just told the rangers that they were on a joy drive on that road :-) They also told me that they didn't see any signs forbidding travel on that road.

From what I heard, the rangers are strictly implementing that policy (I was told by a ranger at the Bigwater Visitor center that the fine was $300). May be, since Kane County recently won a road maintenance lawsuit, BLM has upped the ante on the roads which are legally within its complete jurisdiction. But whoever I met in Kanab and Page, people are darned pi**ed about these policies.

Arindam

This sounds really crazy, Arindam. Kane County has never won ANYTHING against the BLM, since their basic claim is that the land belongs to them, when it does not. Having or not having photo gear? Totally irrelevant.

????

Tom

[ratagonia]

Phillipe,

There's still a way to get to these places (Sidestep), from Lower White Rocks, which you access from Bigwater. That was what I was told by BLM and also a local guide. But the hike is pretty strenuous and time consuming. I was too bummed out to try that.

I don't remember who said this to me (a BLM ranger or a local guide), but it's now (or, could be) a federal felony for trespassing on federal lands.

Arindam

Sounds like you are being played by a local with an axe to grind, Arindam. If they closed the road because of impassable conditions, and you went out anyway and got your car stuck, AND mouthed off when they came and got you, they might give you a ticket for creating a hazardous situation; but then again they might just laugh at you when the towtruck driver presents you the $1000 tow bill.

Kane County marked and cleared roads on the Monument without the (BLM) Monument's permission. The BLM went and 'erased' those roads. If you drive roads that are not part of the 900 miles of open roads in the Monument, then you certainly can be cited for driving off established roadways, which is a misdemeanor. They might administratively close certain areas, for instance, an employee housing area or a vehicle maintenance area, and trespassing there you could be cited for entering a closed area, again, a misdemeanor until you pull out your gun and refuse to accept the ticket (which would constitute a felony).

In other words, you're either being played (successfully) or you are talking smack... in either case, please stop it. The Facts, Ma'am, Just the Facts.

Tom

[tanya]

Totally agree with Tom!

[oldno7]

There is nothing about what Arindam is saying that makes sense.

[arindam]

Folks:

I just narrated here what I was told by the BLM (at the Bigwater Visitor Center). The road in question is specifically BLM 431 (no off-roading, no driving in the wash, nothing of that sort). When I was there, Cottonwood Cyn. was in great shape and so was BLM 431. But I was clearly told that if I were caught on BLM 431, I could be charged with trespassing on federal land. And no, I wasn't being a jerk with them, I was polite all the way.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, I can't argue about that; I just gave you information (as I was given) which could be useful to some future visitors who might want to take BLM 431 to visit the hoodoos and Sidestep Canyon.

Re Kane County winning a lawsuit or not, I am not a local and so I don't know the details, but that's what I was told by a tourist I met at a hotel in Kanab. But in any case, this has nothing to do with the status of BLM 431. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I prefaced the sentence with "may be", which means that it's my inference (inferences are not necessarily facts) that BLM has stepped up its enforcement effort.

This is the last I am going to say anything about this issue.

Arindam

[ratagonia]

Folks:

I just narrated here what I was told by the BLM (at the Bigwater Visitor Center). The road in question is specifically BLM 431 (no off-roading, no driving in the wash, nothing of that sort). When I was there, Cottonwood Cyn. was in great shape and so was BLM 431. But I was clearly told that if I were caught on BLM 431, I could be charged with trespassing on federal land. And no, I wasn't being a jerk with them, I was polite all the way.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, I can't argue about that; I just gave you information (as I was given) which could be useful to some future visitors who might want to take BLM 431 to visit the hoodoos and Sidestep Canyon.

Re Kane County winning a lawsuit or not, I am not a local and so I don't know the details, but that's what I was told by a tourist I met at a hotel in Kanab. But in any case, this has nothing to do with the status of BLM 431. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I prefaced the sentence with "may be", which means that it's my inference (inferences are not necessarily facts) that BLM has stepped up its enforcement effort.

This is the last I am going to say anything about this issue.

Arindam

Thank you for clarifying Arindam, and sorry for going over the top on you. I have an email inquiry into the BLM, and might get a response that adds a little more clarity.

Tom

[Jammer]

re: 431

Could the difference of perspective re: the facts here possible be about where 431 ends? According to the BLM maps, 431 ends where it meets 430 which continues back up to Cottonwood Canyon Rd. The road/track which continues east from this point toward the Wahweap Hoodoos is off limits and is not 431. It may have been considered 431 at one time (not sure), but it's no longer even on the map.

BTW -- walking is always permitted. Horses... maybe. Bikes...technically not, but I really don't think you would get busted for this here (but don't quote me!)

To me... it actually seems nice to keep cars a little bit farther away from this special place.

- Jamal

[arindam]

Tom,

Would you mind clarifying the issue once you get your reply from BLM? If I had been given wrong or misleading information, I would like to know that. It wouldn't be hard for me to retrieve a transcript of my conversation with them.

Arindam

[arindam]

Jamal,

That could well be the case, and if I may hazard a guess, the map has probably been updated very recently. If you read through Laurent Martres' book "Photographing the Southwest (Vol. 2)", the interpretation there is that BLM 431 ends right before the Wahweap Wash, meaning you had to hike in the rest of the way to the hoodoos.

Arindam

[ratagonia]

Jamal,

That could well be the case, and if I may hazard a guess, the map has probably been updated very recently. If you read through Laurent Martres' book "Photographing the Southwest (Vol. 2)", the interpretation there is that BLM 431 ends right before the Wahweap Wash, meaning you had to hike in the rest of the way to the hoodoos.

Arindam

The copyright on that is 2006, and access is definitely quickly changing in this part of the world.

Tom

[arindam]

You are right Tom, but for some reason I thought that the version I have was updated in 2008. Even then, a couple of years is probably eternity as far as BLM land policies are concerned.

I frequent quite a few online forums, and I'm not sure where I read, but I do remember people saying that they were given the shortcut directions by the BLM as late as last year. So that's why I said enforcement policies have probably been enhanced fairly recently. When I heard the lawsuit information (which is wrong as you point out), I put the two and two together and inferred that the stepped up policies probably coincided with that lawsuit decision (again, probably a wrong inference on my part).

Arindam

[peakbaggers]

I for one at least appreciate the discussion on this. The heads up is worthwhile. Went into the Wahweaps by way of 431 a coule of years ago but was there in the afternoon and did not get the best photos. We've been planning on going back, so don't want to go in only to find ourselves fined. Next time, we'll check with the BLM before going. As to mtn bikes using the road, most of the time bikes are restricted from travelling off desinated/recognized road surfaces. If they're not allowed on 431, then maybe it's because the BLM doesn't consider the road in there past the first wash to be a desinated travel route. Would still appreciate a definitive answer on this Tom becaue I still think I could easily ride that road in about an hour one way and would prefer that over hiking in from Bigwater.
Now, would anyone care to reveal where Sidestep Canyon, Rainbow Valley and White Valley are? Was once told by a local tour operator of more hoodoo formations and fantastic colors in another location near & east of the Wahweap hoodoos. About two miles or so before the end of 431, there's a road that heads off SE. It takes you to the top of and beyond some other canyons directly east of the Wahweap formations. Haven't been on that road yet but I think that what the tour operator described fits this road & area. On satelite images, it's hard to tell if there's anything really interesting in there or not. From maps, it's clear you could enter this area from a walk up Wahweap from Bigwater - but would be a significant haul. If anyone has some beta on these others but don't want to post here, please contact us directly.

[arindam]

peakbaggers, you have a PM. But Phillipe really is the know-all on this. The road you mention "about 2 miles before the end of 431" is probably what was known as White Sands Jeep Road. Nope, you can't drive on that one now.

[americanhero]

Thank you for clarifying Arindam, and sorry for going over the top on you. I have an email inquiry into the BLM, and might get a response that adds a little more clarity.

Tom

I would appreciate it if you would write something about their mail response.
I'm usually very suspicious about information not written somewhere in b&w and such a mail would clarify it a little bit .

And I'm also very curious about the other access to Rainbow Valley, Sidestep Canyon ...
I now there is a more strenuous access, but I never used that one. And White Sands Jeep Road is also interesting to know about.