BLM controversy in Southern Utah

[Iceaxe]

2nd Amendment solution:

Anyone attempting to make this a second amendment issue from either the pro or anti gun camps is a complete idiot. Bundy has no more to do with the second amendment than do L.A. street gangs and the Mexican drug cartels. U.S. law is very clear about firearms being used in a criminal act, which includes things like trespassing.

[2065toyota]

With bundy gone, he cannot use the vast amount of water shares that the family owns. Who obtains the water shares once they are revoked for not being used?

Do you know why there is a golf course in Mt Carmel of all places?


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[erial]

T-bird, 9 holes, par 31: scaled for the environment?

[oldno7]

lots of information here:

http://water.nv.gov/data/permit/results.cfm

[Iceaxe]

Do you know why there is a golf course in Mt Carmel of all places?

As a matter of fact I do. At one time the owners of the T-bird were ranchers like most early homesteads in the area. But they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall with regards to grazing on public land and sold their grazing allotments back to the BLM. They were also smart enough to retain their watertight which is where the golf course and T-bird came from.

I have to say that was some very forward thinking at the time to realize tourism was the future of southern Utah and not grazing public lands.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

With bundy gone, he cannot use the vast amount of water shares that the family owns. Who obtains the water shares once they are revoked for not being used?

Do you know why there is a golf course in Mt Carmel of all places?

Golf Course at Mr Carmel, for those who don't know, was built to secure water rights for the eventual development of a large motel. Seems to have worked.

"vast amount of water shares" - you mean, the water sources his family developed on the land they leased from the Federal Gov't, or not. There is some precedence for recognizing his water rights on that, in which case the gov't would have to buy him out, if the court recognizes those rights (which is very much in doubt). Since he is $ 1.2million in the hole at the moment, it may be considered a credit against his non-payment.

I'm not sure what you mean by "vast". The place is desolate and dry, and yes, there is some water there, but not much.

There is, presumably, a privately-owned base property adjacent to the grazing permit (or not) area, that remains private property of the Bundy property. Traditionally, the base properties were placed at the best water to establish ownership and control.

Tom

[ratagonia]

As a matter of fact I do. At one time the owners of the T-bird were ranchers like most early homesteads in the area. But they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall with regards to grazing on public land and sold their grazing allotments back to the BLM. They were also smart enough to retain their watertight which is where the golf course and T-bird came from.

I have to say that was some very forward thinking at the time to realize tourism was the future of southern Utah and not grazing public lands.

Hi Ice -

not entirely consistent with Tanya's history of the area:

Only two families ever settled in Mount Carmel Junction, and one was Jack and Fern Morrison. Jack contemplated the idea that a road must be built connecting Zion Canyon to the east side of the park. Jack explored the area and came to the conclusion that the road must come down in the area now known as Mount Carmel Junction. There were old wagon trails that Jack used to navigate his way down to the valley. The hills were steep forcing Jack to attach a Cedar tree to the back of his Model-T-Ford. Jack was patient and in 1931 he was able to homestead the land now known as Mount Carmel Junction. The land was unkind. It was covered with gullies, quicksand and many layers of sand. The area was also prone to violent flash floods. Jack and Fern lost two children in the flash floods of the East Fork of the Virgin River that runs through the junction. The East Fork of the Virgin River is now known as Parunuweap. Jack died in 1961, from cancer after serving in the war and spending much of his life working in the coal mines. Fern, a strong willed and hard working woman continued to build. She lived to the age of 90, dying in 1998.

Hard to call Jack a "rancher" as if he was running a ranch there. Sounds like he figured out where the road would hit Hwy 89, and homesteaded it at the opportune moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Carmel_Junction,_Utah

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Hi Ice -

not entirely consistent with Tanya's history of the area

I just remembered Tanya telling me it was a choice between cows or tourists at one point and her grandparents picked tourists figuring that was the future. It appears as if they bet on the right horse.




Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[2065toyota]

The government doesn't generally buy water shares. Usually find or make a way to take them. My dad bought property and water shares in the new harmony valley. A few years, he received a letter basically stating that if he didn't show proof that he needed and was using all of his water shares that they would be revoked. Not purchased back, just taken back even though he had bought them. So he had to spend $30,000 putting in another pivot line just so that he wouldn't lose some of his purchased shares. Same concept as the golf course. Use your water rights or we will TAKE them from you


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[Iceaxe]

Use your water rights or we will TAKE them from you

I'm not sure what the issue is, that has been Utah law since the first day the pioneers entered the Salt Lake valley. The Utah prior appropriation system has two basic principles: priority and beneficial use." Priority refers to the general system of first in time, first in right. This means senior water right holders are entitled to their full water right before junior water right holders are entitled to any water." In a time of shortage, the last users to put the water to beneficial use, junior water right holders, will suffer the most. The principle of beneficial use means a water right is acquired by diverting water and putting it to beneficial use; most uses, such as irrigation or stock watering are considered beneficial:" A right to use water may be abandoned or forfeited by nonuse for a statutory period of time.

[Sombeech]

I would rather the BLM kidnap golfers than cattle

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[Iceaxe]

I would rather the BLM kidnap golfers than cattle

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Except for the simple fact there are no golf courses on BLM land I'm behind you 100%.


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[cchoc]

I would rather the BLM kidnap golfers than cattle

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I'd have to be starving before I'd eat a golfer.

[oldno7]

Except for the simple fact there are no golf courses on BLM land I'm behind you 100%.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

ummm----http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/ely_field_office/nepa/ea/2007/final_eas.Par.72204.File.dat/DRFONSI%20Disc%20Golf%20Ely%2012-12-2007.pdf

and it's in Nevada as well.

[oldno7]

many golf courses:

http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/st__g...ses.print.html

[Scott P]

^^^^

Learn something new every day. Thanks Oldno, I didn't know that.

[ratagonia]

many golf courses:

http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/st__g...ses.print.html

Socialism!!!

But then, everyone benefits from golf courses, right?

Tom

[Scott Card]

Ahhhhh, golf courses.... nature manicured!

[cchoc]

This should be fun: http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/co...undy-fest-2014

[ratagonia]

This should be fun: http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/co...undy-fest-2014

Is he going to let us use the bathroom? At that point, I'm gonna really need a shower, and I don't recognize that Clive Bundy exists. So I guess the answer is yes!

T