BLM controversy in Southern Utah

[cchoc]

Religion is tribal and members of tribes tend to support each other. Didn't mean to twist any Mormon tits per se, but I think there is a distinction in this case that both are Mormon ranchers - or flying spaghetti monster ranchers, whatever. It wasn't my intent to offend any Mormons, but if I did then I did.

I'd be a lot more impressed with ol' Clive's integrity if he refused to graze his cattle on land he doesn't own.

[oldno7]

This is all so stupid. the IRS should be handling this with letters, seizing accounts for non payment, liens, etc. The way they normally handle a person that has failed to pay the government for something they owe the government.


Handling this out in the open Rambo style is stupid and only exacerbates the problem.

You should like the new department of commerce regulation, limiting engineering firms to 2 contracts per calendar year.

They also stated they will be increasing license fee's by 75%.

[Scott P]

Handling this out in the open Rambo style is stupid and only exacerbates the problem.

I agree. I think this incident has done and will do far more harm to any environmental cause than good.

[Sombeech]

Religion is tribal and members of tribes tend to support each other. Didn't mean to twist any Mormon tits per se, but I think there is a distinction in this case that both are Mormon ranchers - or flying spaghetti monster ranchers, whatever. It wasn't my intent to offend any Mormons, but if I did then I did.

I'd be a lot more impressed with ol' Clive's integrity if he refused to graze his cattle on land he doesn't own.

I had no idea he was Mormon until you brought it up, and I doubt this mattered to any of his supporters. I'd imagine many of those who have come from out of state to support him are also not Mormon. Their common interest is the opinion on what access the Feds should actually have, not religion.

[cchoc]

I had no idea he was Mormon until you brought it up, and I doubt this mattered to any of his supporters. I'd imagine many of those who have come from out of state to support him are also not Mormon. Their common interest is the opinion on what access the Feds should actually have, not religion.

If you would read what I said nowhere did I suggest this was about religion, that's all on you. The quote posted supporting him was from a Mormon rancher's wife who has issues with the feds, and he's a Mormon rancher with government issues too. That is the truth and has nothing to do with religion, I could just as easily have said they both wore cowboy hats, I was just identifying things they have in common.

I would be amazed, actually, if there are any non Mormon ranchers in that part of the US.

As far as the militia gomers that showed up I expect they just wanted a chance to strut around with guns on. These so called sovereigns won't get any respect from me either. Their ideas on government authority are simply selfish and childish. Sometimes we just can't get our way when it comes to conflicts between us personally and society as a whole and they refuse to accept that.

[Scott P]

That is the truth and has nothing to do with religion, I could just as easily have said they both wore cowboy hats, I was just identifying things they have in common.

OK then, I hope everyone can just drop the Mormon issue. It's just clouding up the thread.

As far as the militia gomers that showed up I expect they just wanted a chance to strut around with guns on.

It's not the militia's guns that were feared, it was cameras and news coverage along with votes.

[Iceaxe]

OK then, I hope everyone can just drop the Mormon issue. It's just clouding up the thread.

It's not the militia's guns that were feared, it was cameras and news coverage along with votes.

^^^THIS^^^

[Sombeech]

[Glenn]

The whole affair is a huge cluster-eff. My initial opinion was that Mr. Bundy has no legal basis for his objections to the fees - with court orders reinforcing this - and that he's really a deadbeat rancher allowing his cattle to graze over such a huge area as to make it impractical to raise them in a healthy manner. At the same time, the BLM has metaphorically stepped in a huge pile of cow poop with this overhanded demonstration of enforcement. I was never convinced that the protection of the desert tortoise was the issue here and when either side mentions it, they both look like idiots.

The Harry/Rory Reid angle did get my attention until I did a little digging. I've discovered - through just a few minutes of online research of a variety (and I mean VARIETY) of sources - that this solar-power-plant-landgrab story just doesn't ring true. As far back as August 2012 (see Reuters article here), there were concerns about Senator Reid's involvement in a possible solar plant in Nevada. There's just two facts that dismiss this as a factor in the Bundy case: 1) The ENN Energy Group project was actually to be located near Laughlin, Nevada which is more than 100 miles south of the Gold Butte area (and further than his actual ranch). 2) The ENN project was cancelled in 2013 (see reference here dated July 2013).

So, now the ultra-conservatives who dislike Senator Reid (and I'm not a fan either) are trying to use this non-existent issue to further polarize the community when in fact it's all just smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is that you have a businessman who has decided not to play by the rules. He has no legal standing and is now relying on a handful of angry citizens to defend him.

[oldno7]

The whole affair is a huge cluster-eff. My initial opinion was that Mr. Bundy has no legal basis for his objections to the fees - with court orders reinforcing this - and that he's really a deadbeat rancher allowing his cattle to graze over such a huge area as to make it impractical to raise them in a healthy manner. At the same time, the BLM has metaphorically stepped in a huge pile of cow poop with this overhanded demonstration of enforcement. I was never convinced that the protection of the desert tortoise was the issue here and when either side mentions it, they both look like idiots.

The Harry/Rory Reid angle did get my attention until I did a little digging. I've discovered - through just a few minutes of online research of a variety (and I mean VARIETY) of sources - that this solar-power-plant-landgrab story just doesn't ring true. As far back as August 2012 (see Reuters article here), there were concerns about Senator Reid's involvement in a possible solar plant in Nevada. There's just two facts that dismiss this as a factor in the Bundy case: 1) The ENN Energy Group project was actually to be located near Laughlin, Nevada which is more than 100 miles south of the Gold Butte area (and further than his actual ranch). 2) The ENN project was cancelled in 2013 (see reference here dated July 2013).

So, now the ultra-conservatives who dislike Senator Reid (and I'm not a fan either) are trying to use this non-existent issue to further polarize the community when in fact it's all just smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is that you have a businessman who has decided not to play by the rules. He has no legal standing and is now relying on a handful of angry citizens to defend him.

Glenn
Go here
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/ene..._projects.html

and look into the Moapa Solar BIA project.
It has not been approved, yet.
It involves the massive use of water.
The Moapa tribe is proposing pulling this water out of the Muddy Cr. drainage.
The Muddy Cr. empties into the Virgin River at or above Lake Mead depending on water level.
Bundy's owned water rights are also a part of this drainage.
The thing about water rights--there are only so many.

Lots more to it-- but if Bundy is out of business and his water rights are turned back in, there would likely be enough for this project.

This is not the project some wrongfully tie to dingy harry, it is a separate project.
Just some food for thought.
Check it out, it IS verifiable.

[oldno7]

http://www.moapasolarenergycentereis...e_1_2-5-14.pdf

Lots of information on the Moapa project here:

from a table on 1-5

Potential hydrology impacts of groundwater usage particularly those
associated with the proposed CSP solar technology and potential impacts
from surface disturbance, including an evaluation of impacts on desert
washes and site drainage/flood control must be evaluated. Project variations
or mitigations that would minimize water use over the project life need to be
considered. Potential effects on water quantity must also be included.

And despite the concern of the blm on Bundy's lease in 1993 of desert tortoise,
It's not a huge concern when these solar farms are proposed in the same desert habitat.

Also from 1-5

Habitat loss or degradation and other impacts to sensitive species must be
evaluated. The desert tortoise is the primary species of interest and the
potential effect of groundwater withdrawal on the Moapa Dace was also
identified. Other species of interest include the Gila monster, burrowing owls,
raptors including eagles and other migratory birds.


Please let me know if this project is not approved due to the endangered desert tortoise.

[cchoc]

Be sure and hurry over to donate: http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/

They accept charity as well as welfare.

[oldno7]

Information on amount of water needed for proposed Moapa solar project.


2.3.2.2.1.3 Water Use/Water System

Development and operation of the Project using CSP technology would require water. Water
uses in a CSP project includes needs for mirror/heliostat cleaning, for the cooling cycle for the
steam turbine (makeup to the cooling tower), makeup to SSG system, service water, potable
water, and fire protection water. The Project water balance (water needs) would be based on
the various process water flow needs for the ambient conditions used as the design basis.
Usage rates would vary during the year and would be higher in the summer. Equipment sizing
would be consistent with peak daily rates to ensure adequate design margin.

The expected water use for the CSP project is approximately 600 to 800 AFY at average
ambient operating conditions. Water would be provided by the Tribe from the same existing
well and piped to the site via the same pipeline described for the Proposed Project.

Two (2) raw water storage tanks, each with a capacity to provide 12-hours of water supply to the
facility, would be located on-site. A portion of one tank would be dedicated to the fire protection
water system.

[deagol]

I've actually been involved in a court case related to title of real property (and it wasn't fun) and I will have to go with the decisions of two separate federal judges over that of his rancher peers... YMMV

[Glenn]

Glenn
Go here
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/ene..._projects.html

and look into the Moapa Solar BIA project.
It has not been approved, yet.
It involves the massive use of water.
The Moapa tribe is proposing pulling this water out of the Muddy Cr. drainage.
The Muddy Cr. empties into the Virgin River at or above Lake Mead depending on water level.
Bundy's owned water rights are also a part of this drainage.
The thing about water rights--there are only so many.

Lots more to it-- but if Bundy is out of business and his water rights are turned back in, there would likely be enough for this project.

This is not the project some wrongfully tie to dingy harry, it is a separate project.
Just some food for thought.
Check it out, it IS verifiable.

Okay...I only skimmed through the EIS information on the Moapa project site and looked at the map again.

So, is the assumption here that the federal government is trying to use the BLM lease issue as a means of putting Bundy out of business so he'll have to relinquish/sell his water rights in order for the Moapa project to get off the ground? Sounds kind of Rube Goldberg - ish to me. Also, it looks like the entire project site sits in the Moapa River Indian Reservation; how does that fit in with Bundy's water rights?

[Scott P]

So, is the assumption here that the federal government is trying to use the BLM lease issue as a means of putting Bundy out of business so he'll have to relinquish/sell his water rights in order for the Moapa project to get off the ground?

If so, it would have had to have been planned 20 years ago. The grazing dispute actually dates back 20 years, so it would have to be one h*** of a long term conspiracy.

[Sombeech]

Harry Reid:

"Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over"

---except if we call them "dreamers".

It's interesting when certain lawmakers choose when and when not to enforce laws.

[ratagonia]

Harry Reid:

"Well, it's not over. We can't have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it's not over"

---except if we call them "dreamers".

It's interesting when certain lawmakers choose when and when not to enforce laws.

Except if we call them "the previous administration". But what's a few war crimes among Heads of State??

[cchoc]

I suppose Cliven as his supporters may be "dreamers" of a sort.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/

I actually read on some site that this was a secret DHS exercise to see how much resistance they will meet when they come to take the guns from us law abiding citizens - except in this case they used cows instead of guns and welfare cheats and assorted crazies instead of law abiding citizens.

[Sombeech]

If only they were undocumented workers trying to farm, this would be done, written off and rewarded.