Alcatraz Rescue

[hesse15]

I was on the the same page as Tom until the above, but I'm perplexed as to what is meant by the
above.
Who are nameless cowards associated with Mike K? Actually, anyone who goes with MK is not nameless and for better or worse, their name always shows up in the books.
Who is being referred to (in general; don't have to mention names)? If it's just to nameless bolt placers do you know who they are? Or how do you know they are associated with MK?
Are you referring to people such as Eberhart (spelling?) that used to fly to the Navajo Nation canyons and way over bolt them?

usually MRK always put the names of people with him and is a long time that does not place bolts,and definitely i do not think he has anything to do with those those placed in alcatraz

and what does Israel have to do with anything? Perhaps this is an idiom I'm not familiar with?
Just curious as to what all the above means. I think you lost me on this one.

this is a personal issue between MRK and Tom, nothing that is related to canyons!

btw; will be nice if a bolt is in the book to be left alone and maintained ,mostly when is a historic canyon like costrichnine!!
from a biology/environmental protection stand point: webbing and grooves are worse than a piece of tiny metal on the side of the wall!!

and not everybody that do canyons are always on forum to check the latest changes in anchoring!
but as you know we EUROS likes bolts is in our DNA!!!!

[ratagonia]

Who are nameless cowards associated with Mike K? Actually, anyone who goes with MK is not nameless and for better or worse, their name always shows up in the books.

Who is being referred to (in general; don't have to mention names)? If it's just to nameless bolt placers do you know who they are? Or how do you know they are associated with MK?

2nd Edition Slot canyon guide, page 92: Steve Tyler rapping in Mindbender, with bolt dust still on the bolts. The bolts were well-placed and one was European-type (Metric); both qualities indicate that they were not placed by Steve Tyler or MK, but by someone else. It is possible they were placed by a previous party, however, the fresh dust suggests otherwise.

They WERE placed in a location that would require long pieces of webbing, and still would produce substantial rope grooves.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0811mind/index2.htm

And what does Israel have to do with anything? Perhaps this is an idiom I'm not familiar with?

On my trip with Michael to Quandary Direct and to Seger's Window Canyon, I found that "discussing" any issue in relation to bolting or G-Picking was not useful. He SAID he only uses the G-Pick on explorations, but then insisted on using it at the slide-down in Quandary. Hmm, seems like that was not a first descent. As soon as any statement critical of his position was made, he said "Oh, you're one of those..." and went off on a diatribe about how stupid everyone was for not adopting the G-Pick. I found it was easy to distract him from this diatribe by saying "Israel" - which would then result in a very long diatribe about our 51st state...

YMMV

Tom

[Scott P]

2nd Edition Slot canyon guide, page 92: Steve Tyler rapping in Mindbender, with bolt dust still on the bolts. The bolts were well-placed and were European-type (Metric); both indicate that they were not placed by Steve Tyler or MK, but by someone else. It is possible they were placed by a previous party, however, the fresh dust suggests otherwise.

Mike told me himself that he placed those bolts.

I let him know that they were being pulled (as far as I recall, it was without telling him who pulled them) and that he should correct the guidebook accordingly. He told me that the bolts were pretty new and that he just installed them (with the obligatory small rant about pulling bolts, et al). [I've warned him before that bolts in the Roost will eventually probably get pulled].

I don't think he was lying about placing the bolts. It doesn't make sense what the motivation would be. MK is quite straightforward in his book about who he was with on his trips.

Are you saying that there was either someone else in their group who placed the bolts or that he had someone go down and place the bolts for him just prior to doing the canyon so MK could do the canyon right after?

What would be the motivation for him telling me that he himself placed the bolts when I informed him that they were pulled? It seems that if there was motivation to lie, it would be in the other direction and he would claim that he didn't place them, but that they were already there.

As far as the bolts being metric, Eberhard, a European, has probably placed more bolts with Kelsey than anyone and they are metric. Isn't it plausible, if not even probable that the metric bolts would be left over from Eberhard? I believe he did give a bunch of stuff to Kelsey when he (Eberhard) stopped canyoneering.

To me it seems more probable than a phantom canyoneer hanging around with Kelsey placing bolts either for him or just before he went down.

To asked your own questions that you asked earlier:

Based on what?

Prejudice/stereotyping?

Do you have any evidence, or is this just the fruit of a conjecturing mind?

Or perhaps maybe there really is something you have heard or know that the events really either have or had take place? I'm not trying to bash you, but just confused as to how you came to the conclusions or if you really do know more than is present on this thread.

(Or if this isn't something you would want to reveal in public, feel free to PM or email me).

[ratagonia]

Mike told me himself that he placed those bolts.

It may surprise you to learn that I am not privy to all your conversations with Mr. K. Having a conversation with YOU is not the same as owning up to placing them on an active public forum, or in his book. So, you have named the Nameless Coward in this specific case, it is Mr. K.

I let him know that they were being pulled (as far as I recall, it was without telling him who pulled them) and that he should correct the guidebook accordingly. He told me that the bolts were pretty new and that he just installed them (with the obligatory small rant about pulling bolts, et al). [I've warned him before that bolts in the Roost will eventually probably get pulled].

I enjoyed his rant, and found it quite mature. It is very good to warn people that bolts in pictures may not be there for the next descent, and I consider this a significant step forward for Mr. K.

I don't think he was lying about placing the bolts. It doesn't make sense what the motivation would be. MK is quite straightforward in his book about who he was with on his trips.

Are you saying that there was either someone else in their group who placed the bolts or that he had someone go down and place the bolts for him just prior to doing the canyon so MK could do the canyon right after?

What would be the motivation for him telling me that he himself placed the bolts when I informed him that they were pulled? It seems that if there was motivation to lie, it would be in the other direction and he would claim that he didn't place them, but that they were already there.

I believe these statements are irrelevant now that we have clarified that Mr. K has talked to you, and YOU are not a public forum.

As far as the bolts being metric, Eberhard, a European, has probably placed more bolts with Kelsey than anyone and they are metric. Isn't it plausible, if not even probable that the metric bolts would be left over from Eberhard? I believe he did give a bunch of stuff to Kelsey when he (Eberhard) stopped canyoneering.

That makes sense, as one bolt was an American, and the other was a metric. An odd combination. In the past, the bolts Mr. K has placed have been particularly poor; it seems like his skill level in this task has improved.

To me it seems more probable than a phantom canyoneer hanging around with Kelsey placing bolts either for him or just before he went down.

Thank you for clarifying the situation. We have identified that the phantom canyoneer is Mr. K himself.

To asked your own questions that you asked earlier:

Based on what?

Prejudice/stereotyping?

Do you have any evidence, or is this just the fruit of a conjecturing mind?

Or perhaps maybe there really is something you have heard or know that the events really either have or had take place? I'm not trying to bash you, but just confused as to how you came to the conclusions or if you really do know more than is present on this thread.

(Or if this isn't something you would want to reveal in public, feel free to PM or email me).

Yes, I have presented the evidence:
1. Pictures of Mr. K / Steve Tyler rapping off of freshly placed bolts. Page 92.
2. A past history by Mr. K of placing bolts especially poorly;
3. Well-placed bolts at this drop.
4. An odd selection of bolts at this drop.

All this is public information, though #2. is my opinion that may not have been expressed explicitly on a public forum.

From this, I offered the hypothesis that someone (the phantom bolter) with Mr. K placed these bolts and did not own up to it in a public forum. You have clarified that the phantom bolter is Mr. K, who did not own up to it in a public forum. I realize that Mr. K is not an active member of the on-line canyoneering community, but I am surprised that Mr. K did not claim paternity for the bolts in question, because I would expect him to. He publishes a public forum, his guidebooks, which is his main mode of contact with the canyoneering community.

We now have your information that Mr. K placed these bolts, and that he has improved his bolting skills substantially. I have mixed feelings about this.

We have also clarified that I do NOT know everything you know. Perhaps you can see that when you have additional information that is not public, that this can inform the conversation. I believe the hypothesis I reached was reasonable, given the available information.

------

I object to your tone, Scott. When you have additional information, please put that information forward and clarify the situation. In this case, you quasi-bashed me for presenting a hypothesis based on the available public information, which was unnecessary and oddly hostile, my friend.

Tom

[Bootboy]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

[Slot Machine]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

Oh, I wanna play.

A good question with answers that will contain many shades of gray. On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.

On the 'black' end would be a canyon like The Squeeze or Pine Creek; where removing bolts would be reckless and endanger lives because the drops are difficult to anchor naturally, the bolts are well known, blah blah blah. Imagine Tom testifying against you in a court of law for removing bolts. Those canyons.

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?

I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners...

[Scott P]

When you have additional information, please put that information forward and clarify the situation.

I did present that information, but only after I found out what the heck you were talking about or referring to. Before your latest post, I don't know if anyone else did either, but assumed some “may be in the know”.

In the past, I did post the information of the bolts being placed by Kelsey in the canyons group (unfortunately the new yahoo makes it harder to search for messages, but I bet you can find them if you look), but I don't expect that every post post would be remembered either. That was something like 5 years ago?

To tell you the truth, I actually know relatively little about what goes on in the canyoneering community nowadays, partially because most of my emphasis has been canyoneering with the kids and doing other stuff with them instead of being out there finding new canyons, gatherings, and the like.

In fact, three weeks ago was actually the first time I have seen Kelsey in over seven years, though I do try to send periodic updates to him concerning his books.

My post was made out of a state of confusion rather than to attack. As far as tone goes, if we were conversing in person you could see that my tone was not attacking, angry, or hostile, but the post was inquisitive, about being confused, and curious (and phrased as questions). Although I was (only a very little) afraid it might be taken the wrong way, I tried to point out that it wasn't meant to be hostile and curiosity was greater than any worry.

The original post sounded to be presented as a fact rather than just a hypothesis. The hypothesis is reasonable, but I didn't know that it was only a hypothesis. It was assumed by me that you heard something differently or knew something more.

my friend

Yes, that is true. I have been asked if I am friends with Tom Jones before and I say yes and say that I've done a few canyons with you.

Same with Mike Kelsey, Shane Burrows, Ram, Todd Martin, etc. Even though I may not agree with you or Kelsey on some things, and may not know you guys all that well, you're both still my friends, so it seems natural that I'd be curious about the comment made implying a nameless canyoneer associated with Kelsey. It is also plausible that how I took your post was not really what you meant.

================================================== =============================================

I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there?

The bolts I know of in there (as of Oct 2012) were either placed a long time ago or fairly new at the first pothole. The one placed a long time ago isn't at a difficult place, but in an area of the canyon that seems easy. I've guessed that the canyon has changed since the bolt was placed and that it used to be harder.

I can't tell by reading this thread if this is the same place being referred to.

The pin at the semi keeper is new.

Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

Like placing them, to pull bolts, you have to know what you are doing to do a good job (I don't know if you do or not). Otherwise you can make a mess. If you haven't pulled them, it would be better to take someone who knew how to do a good of doing so. As said, I don't know if you know how to pull them or not; you may indeed know how, but am just mentioning this in case you don't.

[MrAdam]

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?

I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners...

We did not have to use any of the bolts in Alcatraz. I feel they are definitley more on the 'white' side of your comparison. The two bolts that I saw on canyon right, had no webbing on them and no vaild use that I could figure out.

The single bolt on canyon left just before the crux had a handline tied on to it, which we removed, but it is above a somewhat difficult downclimb, so I think that falls into the grey area........

Alcatraz is a great canyon, I liked it even more than Not Mindbender!

[ratagonia]

The single bolt on canyon left just before the crux had a handline tied on to it, which we removed, but it is above a somewhat difficult downclimb, so I think that falls into the grey area........

The downclimb in question is easy as a meat-anchor / last person well-spotted (capture/catch/thigh-belay/circle-of-love). It is not obvious from above that this is the case, especially if there is water of unknown depth at the bottom of it. All of which means it requires some degree of canyoneer-savvy to do without using the bolt. On my trips through Alcatraz, I think we use the bolt about half the time.

A good downclimber can just downclimb it - unless there is water of unknown depth at the bottom.

So, no, it is not so grey, more white.

Scott: there are no (reported) bolts at the semi-keeper + rappel near the start of the canyon. I took out a pin that was there this spring.

Tom

[hesse15]

Oh, I wanna play.
A good question with answers that will contain many shades of gray. On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.

no worries!!!! i just really like shiny metals!!!!!

On the 'black' end would be a canyon like The Squeeze or Pine Creek; where removing bolts would be reckless and endanger lives because the drops are difficult to anchor naturally, the bolts are well known, blah blah blah. Imagine Tom testifying against you in a court of law for removing bolts. Those canyons.[/QUOTE=Slot Machine;546464]I just have to wait for my canyoneering tuxedo to come back from the dry cleaners...

in costricnine the first descenders way before Shane and Hank placed a piton and somebody added a bolt, an unknown that was not Tom (he always take responsibility and warn about before he does) removed and i do not remember the tree but when recently i did a group after us got a big tumble because the rubbed webbing broke!
Squeeze will be so very nice to have Tom (hint hint ) set those single old bolts in nice doubles with rings ,so no webbing needed!!!!

I have not done Alcatraz, but suspect it is in the middle. Perhaps categorized with the last drop in Not Mindbender? Or perhaps more towards 'white'?
I assume Mr K is pretty skilled... so what is special about that drop that would motivate him to place bolts there? Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? I'd like to get educated. Perhaps I can just go pull them since Alcatraz is at the top of my to do list.

I do not think Kelsey has anything to do with Alcatraz, he has already color pictures of it so usually he does not do canyons unless he needs pictures!!!! and he will not waste 10$ in bolts like that!! and yes it is a beautiful canyon but i prefer in late spring and summer with no mud!!!!

[ratagonia]

So in light of the direction this thread has gone...

Is there, or should there be any culpability associated with the removal of bolts? I.e.: leads to an accident because unprepared groups get into trouble because of the expectation of bolts?

You plan on suing God? God removes a lot of anchors.

T

[ratagonia]

In Constrictnine the first descenders way before Shane and Hank placed a piton and somebody added a bolt, an unknown that was not Tom (he always take responsibility and warn about before he does) removed and i do not remember the tree but when recently i did a group after us got a big tumble because the rubbed webbing broke!

We do not know who first descended Constrichnine and whether they placed the drilled angle piton or not. Or when.

I added a bolt after some thought and discussion, then agreed that it was a poor choice and really both the suspect angle and the bolt should be removed. An unknown person removed both.

I rarely warn before I remove bolts. Whenever anyone says they placed a new bolt, I usually pipe in that they should consider it gone. But I do not schedule a trip to do so and then announce it - I am a Target Of Opportunity type guy.

Tom

[hesse15]

We do not know who first descended Constrichnine and whether they placed the drilled angle piton or not. Or when.

correction:when Hank and Shane did there was a piton placed before them

I added a bolt after some thought and discussion, then agreed that it was a poor choice and really both the suspect angle and the bolt should be removed. An unknown person removed both.

and never said who it was

I rarely warn before I remove bolts. Whenever anyone says they placed a new bolt, I usually pipe in that they should consider it gone. But I do not schedule a trip to do so and then announce it - I am a Target Of Opportunity type guy.

Tom

sent pm

[deagol]

...
.......Does anyone have a photo of the drop in question? ........

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were on the left side LDC of pothole followed by a "wall"

here is what it looked like last fall


And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

The rap started from a pothole with a lip that lead to the drop and ended in another pothole that was exited by a crack on the right side LDC.

[ratagonia]

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were about a pothole

here is what it looked like last fall


And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

Is this at the pothole, near the top of the canyon? V slot into a 10' Diameter pothole, then a 30' drop (rappel) on the other side?

Used to be anchored by a rock in the V slot.

Inquiring minds want to know!!

I ask because it looks like the rope grooves from the anchor back in the V-slot.

Tom

p.s. - nice looking rope!

[Scott P]

Scott: there are no (reported) bolts at the semi-keeper + rappel near the start of the canyon. I took out a pin that was there this spring.

You are correct; it was actually a pin, rather than a bolt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't recall the anchor in the photo above last fall. For sure it isn't the one I was referring to.

[Bootboy]

You plan on suing God? God removes a lot of anchors.

T

Good point. I guess as long as I don't tell...

[Byron]

Well, since there are some pictures going up, and Mike Kelsey (who I admire greatly) is being once again shredded by Tom...I figure I'll chime in.

I spent a lot of time with Mike, doing a lot of canyons. We spent days together, talking about everything under the sun. Yes, I've heard his opinions about Israel, but who really cares? Lots of folks have whacky opinions on things...so what. Are you Jewish, Tom? Because it seems like you really take it personally.

Anyway, Mike and I hit some very remote canyons around the lake that we had very little beta on. He brought a bolt kit. He told me that he'll only use it when absolutely nothing else will work...because it's such a time consuming pain in the ass...and you know how cheap he is. We used every thing to rig up a rope that we could find, and built several deadmans. So you're notion of him being some kind of bolt freak is flat out wrong.

And yes, he talked about people "like you" being "one of them". Or should I say, "The One"...the high and mighty sage of wisdom and ethics deciding what bolts or good or bad. The problem is that someone may come to a drop, expecting a bolt to be there because someone they know said so, only to discover that Mr. Righteous removed it very recently. Perhaps they don't have a sandtrap, or enough webbing for that rock 20 feet away...they're screwed. And yes Tom, people do, and will continue to go into canyons unprepared...despite your snarky preaching.

Photos below of myself with Mr. "Bolt the hell out of it" Kelsey going through unexplored canyons...someone, Tom, who I would much rather spend a day with listing to his rants on Israel and the stock market versus you're high minded self righteousness.

[hesse15]

Good point. I guess as long as I don't tell...

God remove dead man not drilled bolts!

and if you are one of those cowards off course you will not tell

but if you are a MAN you are suppose to tell and take responsability of your actions having consequences on the lives of people!!!!

[spinesnaper]