What is the safest and easiest rappelling device?

[DiscGo]

So I made a mistake. I took my wife for her first rappelling trip and did BattleCreek Falls. She wasn't in the falls itself, but it was too loud to communicate properly and that left her with a lot of unanswered questions and concerns. She did it like a champ, but told me that she only endured it and did not enjoy it.

I am taking her Canyoneering next month with @Deathcricket down in Zion and part of me is concerned that this may be the only trip she ever does. I want to make her feel as safe and solid as possible, so I am looking for some input in advance.

Currently I have a Pirana that I was planning on her using, but I am wondering if she would be better off with a Totem, or a grigri type device.

What do you guys suggest is the best device to make a complete newbie (with a fear of heights) feel safe and secure as they rappel down?

What advice would you give me to get her ready for next month?

Thanks

[Redpb]

I always thought the ATC was the easiest and safest for a beginner. Easy to understand, built in friction grips.

[Deathcricket]

I think pirana. ATC would be 2nd choice. I've noticed noobs tend to bounce on the ATC though and it freaks them out. I'll bring both if you want and she can try them out. I think the more important thing is to give them a hard active belay and constant words of encouragement and instructions. If they make even the tiniest mistake I tend to stop them, not because they need to be stopped but just to reassure them I WILL stop them at the slightest problem they have. Once the nerves quite down it's easier for them to learn, but the first thing is to make them feel safe and secure.

Edit: looking forward to the trip! *thumbs up*

[hank moon]

Hi Discgo

Nothing takes the edge off fear like repetition. If you can get on rope with her at least once a week (preferably more) and experiment with various devices and techniques (in a "controlled" environment), the ideal device choice - for her - may reveal itself while increasing her confidence. My first rap was about 12 feet (between two levels of a switchbacked trail) and it was all I could do at the time.

Some general advice:

- Talk it over so that you are both sure she really wants to do it. Without genuine motivation, fear will take over.

- Educate: before rappelling, make sure she understands the role and correct use of the various pieces of gear in the system. A good understanding helps reduce fear.

- Start out very, very easy - like, horizontal, even. Just to get a feel for the gear, leaning back against the rope, etc.

- Demo + use the fireman's belay so that she is confident that there is a backup system, and that it works. Emphasize that letting go of the brake line is a 'never-do'

- If needed, experiment with rapping down side by side, perhaps joined by a tether. Sometimes an accompanied rappel is all it takes to instill enough confidence to go solo.

- Develop and use a good communication system at all times. Being on rope can be lonely/scary and good communication helps stave off fear. Whistles and hand signals are often necessary in Class C environments.

- The device alone doesn't matter so much. What does matter is learning how to manage friction and having good body position and reflexes while on rappel (especially when negotiating edges): her bodyweight, the interaction between device and rope (wet/dry, double/single, old/new, clean/dirty, etc.), extra friction settings, extending the device, etc. The whole system. I suggest using a variable friction device* (e.g. Pirana) instead of something fixed (e.g. ATC). An extended device is generally easier to manage, especially for beginners, provided the anchor point is high enough to avoid awkward starts (low-position anchors can often be 'comfortized' - or raised - by another team member).

Anyone got stuff to critique, add, subtract?

[2065toyota]

Show her an 8. An Atc. An ats. A pira

[2065toyota]

On a side note. It was nice knowing you since now that your part of the z team we may not see you again

[DOSS]

I would stay away from the gri gri etc.. keep it simple.. heck if you are that worried get a rack there is nothing simpler... Then take her to a climbing gym or a some of the raps up rock canyon and practice before she feels pressure while on a big trip

[hank moon]

[QUOTE=2065toyota;510471]Show her an 8. An Atc. An ats. A pira

[hank moon]

I would stay away from the gri gri etc.. keep it simple.. heck if you are that worried get a rack there is nothing simpler... Then take her to a climbing gym or a some of the raps up rock canyon and practice before she feels pressure while on a big trip

X2 to no Grigri and KISS....but a rack can be hard to manage for a beginner, and has the same failure mode as a fig. 8. (see post, above).

The ultimate variable friction device is perhaps the standard 14" brake bar rack with stainless bars, but I would not recommend it for a beginner unless the anchors are set up high, the instructor expert in its use, and the student highly motivated and given time to learn the subtleties of setup and friction management.

[Iceaxe]

I put my entire family on ATC-XP's (I actually use an ATC-XP Guide, but same thing really) because that is what I use, it is what I know best, and it's what I'm most comfortable with.... and it's always nice when the entire group is using the same rappel devise. It makes rigging and setting friction super easy because I know the devise inside and out. It's also nice with beginners when the first person down can verify the friction was set correctly for those who will follow.

With beginners if the group is using vastly different rappel devises you can create issues, because what works well with an ATC doesn't work well with a Pirana, which doesn't work well with a stitch plate.

YMMV

[hank moon]

With beginners if the group is using vastly different rappel devises you can create issues, because what works well with an ATC doesn't work well with a Pirana, which doesn't work well with a stitch plate.

Great point! Easier to reinforce good technique when every group member can potentially model for the others.

[DiscGo]

On a side note. It was nice knowing you since now that your part of the z team we may not see you again

What is the z team?

[DiscGo]

I know that ATCs are great for belaying, but I had heard they are kind of scary to rappel with. Is that not so?

[Iceaxe]

I know that ATCs are great for belaying, but I had heard they are kind of scary to rappel with. Is that not so?

An ATC is just as good as everything else for rappeling. Every devise has it's up side and it's down side, it's more about which devise do you know best.

[Iceaxe]

What is the z team?

I think he just called you a n00b....

In a fun sorta way.... and it's a reference to certian canyoneers referring to their cadre as the "A-team".... which either means they are superior to everyone else.... or they are a bunch of chest thumping Asshats... depending on who you ask....

[2065toyota]

What is the z team?

Thats is Jake's self imposed team name. It's all in good fun. I've been with him before and he is coming with us on Saturday. I am similar to Shane in that my entire family including me uses an ATC and everyone knows how to use it. It is very easy to add and subtract friction to and is simple to operate. The only time an ATC is choppy is when using the high friction side which was designed for belaying not rappelling. Add caribeners or leg loops to change it up. I carry an ATS as my backup device. If you want to try an ATC I can send one with Jake on Saturday to try out before you buy one

[2065toyota]

I agree that "they all work" but some devices are easier to use than others. I would avoid the 8 as it is more difficult to manage properly. Easier to drop and it has a nasty failure mode:

http://goo.gl/Y3Mxp

More interesting stuff:

http://goo.gl/IuRjk

Note: the Totem, brake bar rack, Robot, and other large-eye devices are also susceptible to this failure mode (inward loading on the carabiner gate).

Everything has a "nasty failure mode" if not used correctly. I don't like 8's either because they twist the rope alot, but if someone feels comfortable using it then go for it. In the history of climbing and rapelling I would assume the 8 has done more descents than all the rest combined. It definitely is old school technology though. The setup for a newcomer is a lot the group leaders responsibility until the person is comfortable with themselves.

[DiscGo]

If you want to try an ATC I can send one with Jake on Saturday to try out before you buy one

Thanks. I have an ATC from rock climbing. I have just not really used it for rappelling. I will go rappelling with it, and check it out. Thank you again for the offer. That is way cool of you!

[hank moon]

Everything has a "nasty failure mode" if not used correctly.

Very true. Especially the very common letting-go-of-the-brake-line nasty failure mode. However, the point I wanted to make was that the 8 has an obscure failure mode not shared with many other common devices (Pirana, ATC) and so is less beginner-friendly. Earlier post edited to clarify that.

[hank moon]

Thanks. I have an ATC from rock climbing. I have just not really used it for rappelling. I will go rappelling with it, and check it out. Thank you again for the offer. That is way cool of you!

There are so many ATC models floating around these days, it's hard to keep track:


- original ATC
- ATC-XP (2 versions)
- ATC-Guide (2 versions)


Each model has different friction (and other) characteristics. The original ATC is the simplest, and gives the least friction. ATC-XP gives the most friction, with the Guide somewhere in between (but substantially more than the ATC-O).