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Thread: Fiddlestix Anchors
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05-29-2012, 10:35 AM #41
Glue on PVC works really well.
When used.
Tom
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05-29-2012 10:35 AM # ADS
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05-29-2012, 01:40 PM #42
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05-29-2012, 02:00 PM #43
--only canyoneers, could come up with 177 different ways to--"Make a Stick"
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05-29-2012, 03:08 PM #44
I'm finding all this technical stuff so interesting, I might have to start canyoneering just so I can experience it in person!!
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06-13-2012, 12:52 PM #45
I have field tested several options as a fiddlestick, and have settled on a Rubbermaid refrigerator coil brush handle. I bought it at Ace Hardware for $7. It is a perfect diameter, about right friction, wont kill you on the way down, won't expand when wet, and has a pre-drilled hole. I am concerned that at some point the hole could be blown out. It is about 14 inches long, but could easily be trimmed down if desired. Has anyone found anything else besides sail batten, PVC or metal that they like?
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06-13-2012, 04:13 PM #46
Sonny Lawrence and friends recently did some extensive testing and analysis of the Fiddlestick and knots, including pictures. Interesting stuff. It can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/64998
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06-13-2012, 07:25 PM #47
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06-14-2012, 10:11 AM #48
If folks don't belong to the canyons group, I'll repost here:
Posted by Sonny on the canyons yahoo group:
Paul Stovall, Mark Binder, Trevor Walton and I did some preliminary testing on
releasable anchors variously referred to as Fiddlestick, J Rods, toggles and
pins which acted in concert with a variant of the Stein hitch. It should be
noted that only a few iterations of a particular system were run. Hence one
cannot make a statistical evaluation of the results. Rather, the results show a
trend. Such information would then be used to guide further testing. There are
many confounding parameters such as new vs. old rope, clean vs. dirty rope, wet
vs. dry rope, rope diameter, rope material, rope construction, pin construction,
pin shape, pin diameter, pin coating. Also note that such anchors should be
considered as advanced. They require a lot of practice in a safe environment
before being used in canyons.
For the test we used Imlay Canyon rope, size 9 mm and 8 mm. We used 6 pins:
nylon 6 tapered, HDPE, aluminum, oak, piton and nylon 6 straight. Paul made the
"nylon 6 tapered" by drilling a hole through the center and tapering it slightly
from the center to the ends. That gave it a waist. The oak has been used in
canyons over the past few years as a pin for a similar system. It originally was
coated with polyurethane which is partially rubbed off. The piton is from the
70s. Paul made a pin out of aluminum and flattened the end to attach a cord to.
The HDPE material was cut as a flat piece. All pins ranged in length from 4 to
6 inches. Please see photographs.
The "anchor" was a rapide suspended in air. The rope being tested was passed
through it to simulate going around an object such as a rock or tree. A fifty
(50) pound weight was suspended in air on a tether such that when the system
released, it would not hit the ground. That weight was chosen to simulate the
forces an anchor would see if an adult was hanging on a rope that had a lot of
friction where it touched the rock. So for example on a particular rappel the
force on an anchor from a 180 pound person might only be 50 pounds. In addition,
the weight was increased to 100 pounds and later 150 pounds. This simulated
increasingly less friction of rope over rock.
Most of the testing was done with the pull down rope being less than or equal to
15 degrees from the rappel rope. That was to simulate both ropes leaving the
anchor roughly together. This is referred to as "vertical." One test was run
with the pull down rope perpendicular to the rappel rope. This is referred to as
"horizontal."
The Stein used was always tied from an overhand, not a figure eight. It was tied
in the "up" position, i.e., the doubled rope was looped. The loop was then
flipped toward the anchor in order to pull through a bite for the pin to be
placed under. As the testing progressed, it was realized that there was a trend
for the release force related to how the pin was placed in the Stein. The Stein
is asymmetrical with respect to the bite of rope pulled through (that the pin
will be placed under). One can describe it in terms of which side the rappel
rope is aligned with. Please see photograph for an example. Consequently as the
test progressed, notation was made as to if the pin was inserted on the same or
opposite side as the rappel rope. This is called "Stein-pin relation." Also,
depending on how the Stein is tied, the rappel rope can be just above the pin
(hence touching it) or it can be above the tail's loop. A distinction was then
made as to the rappel rope being "high" or "low." This is called "Rap loop
relation." See photograph.
The force needed to release the pin was measured with a dynamometer held (and
then caught) by the person testing.
Photographs in our Yahoo pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/cl3n26b
Spreadsheet at: our Yahoo files named stein.xls
Video at: <>
Trends
1) If more weight was used to simulate the person on rappel, much more force was
needed to release the pin.
2) Release forces roughly averaged for the following Stein-pin configurations:
opposite/high 20 lbs
opposite/low 23 lbs
same/high 29 lbs
same/low 34 lbs
3) Little difference was seen between 9 mm and 8 mm rope.
4) Different pin materials behaved differently with aluminum requiring the
highest average release force and nylon the lowest.
Implications
1) If indeed there is significant difference in release force depending on the
Stein configuration chosen, this might be useful at a particular rappel. So for
example, if in the judgment of the canyon team, the pull down is going to be
difficult, the configuration of opposite/high would be chosen due to its lower
release force. Conversely if the pull cord was being influenced by moving water,
the Stein configuration of same/low would be chosen in order to minimize the
likelihood of a premature release with the last person still on rappel.
2) Never allow the last person to deploy the pull cord from a pack upon rappel.
The release forces are in a range that could easily be obtained with deadly
consequences.
3) Keep your full weight on this system while on rappel until you are on the
ground.
4) Depending on the Stein configuration, two pins of different materials, say
steel vs. nylon, may be made to release at similar forces.
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06-15-2012, 12:55 AM #49
Anywho... Here's my latest incarnation. I l use the tapered section of an aluminum ski pole (haven't test the strength yet, but the taper makes it slick) and a locking clove hitch which will not loosen when unweighted. It's nice because the fiddlestick remains in line with the rope unlike with the stone knot which orients the stick perpendicular, and from what I've read in this forum and others, is one problem with the stone. The locking clove unfurls just like a normal clove hitch when the stick is pulled. I've only played with this in the yard and will do some refining.
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06-19-2012, 01:32 PM #50
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06-19-2012, 01:39 PM #51
So how exactly do you leave nothing behind? Are you just wrapping rope around something? Are you tieing the rope to a Rapide on webbing, putting the tail through the other rapide and then just doing the fiddlestix furhter down the line?
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06-19-2012, 01:43 PM #52
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06-19-2012, 01:45 PM #53
Looks like I'm not the only one
The way that I demonstrated still maintains several advantages over having to pull the whole rope. Does it not? Most of the canyons I do have existing anchors. My method helps to minimize impact (rope grooves in rock); makes for faster, cleaner pulls, and allows me to carry less gear. Do these have no merit of themselves if webbing is left?
Boots
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06-19-2012, 02:04 PM #54
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06-19-2012, 09:37 PM #55
I see this mostly as a really great way to kill yourself. But, at least you guys are puttin' some thought in it.
Take something safe like rappelling, and, make it as sketchy as you can...what do you get? Canyoneering...
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06-19-2012, 09:50 PM #56
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06-20-2012, 08:54 AM #57
I have a question: Outside of having to run the rope through a rapide or rap ring or carrying (2) 100' ropes in lieu of a 200' rope for a 90' rappel for example, what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame? I can see maybe a smoother disconnect at the anchor which would be nice if you're rappelling into a slot or area where you can't step back to pull the rope. Just looking for other ideas & opinions on advantages to help justify carrying more gear.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesoldno7 liked this post
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06-20-2012, 09:05 AM #58
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06-20-2012, 09:24 AM #59
The fiddlestick method is a releasable system, there are many.
choosing the right one for any particular application is the canyoneers job.(mostly what you feel comfortable with)
Some involve more hardware some less.......
I never use a cem but have considerable rope time on a macrame as well as a couple others, including a fiddlestick.
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06-20-2012, 12:13 PM #60
I found the macrame to be unreliable. It would get stuck. The release depends on the friction properties of the rope, which vary from rope to rope and from time to time.
The FiddleStick was developed to create a robust, reliable, non-pull-through, no-trash system. I like that it is turning into a craft project, rather than a product that I would be obliged to produce. Some people will have no use for it - I consider it an esoteric piece of equipment / technique that should probably not become used generally.
Tom
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