American Canyon Guides Association ACGA

[nelsonccc]

Nelsonccc always acts like a whiny little bitch - it is his Internet Persona. 500 more posts and he will be able to buy a pair of huecos...

(just amusing myself, Christian, please take no offense...)

Hey! I even, in what I thought was a very uncharacteristic act, changed it and even stated I was being an asshole! Now tell me how often does that happen? Internet anonymity makes me extra bold sometimes..

Shane did a good job of explaining that I, as a casual participant in canyoneering, should just sit back and let you guys figure it out. GOOD LUCK. Looks like a train wreck! Just tell me if you guys need anything!

[ratagonia]

Hey! I even, in what I thought was a very uncharacteristic act, changed it and even stated I was being an asshole! Now tell me how often does that happen? Internet anonymity makes me extra bold sometimes.

Shane did a good job of explaining that I, as a casual participant in canyoneering, should just sit back and let you guys figure it out. GOOD LUCK. Looks like a train wreck! Just tell me if you guys need anything!

Yah, I responded to Nats response while in the process of reading through the weekend's kerfuffle. I went canyoneering, it was fun, really fun.

Tom

[reflection]

The "pot still simmers" in spite of the weekend lull (away from the internet). Interesting, a mini-drama that plays out on at least three stages. Bogley (filled with a myriad of plus or minus views); Yahoo Canyon's group (some (to some degree) agree with Phil, others really don't like Phil or 'piss ant' hate him), Ram soft critique, Shane a very "cogent" suggestion re operation of a new ACA and then much soft stroking, yea or nay re RC/ACA; and then the ACA site offering, similar to a passing eulogy (of sort), soft/strong encouragement, endorsement and then mild to very strong critique of any and all ACA/RC naysayers.

One commentator (on the ACA site) (more than others) caught my attention. His statement in part; "There are people who do things and people who criticize. Critics spend a lot of time wondering why the world isn't perfect. They will never understand because they never have had to face the real challenges that come along with creating and doing."

(And just how many political campaigns, corporations, organizations, associations and firms has the fellow/lady worked in?)

Let's see? Some of us have been (actively) involved in the political/civics and business arena for how many decades? (and some of us canyoneering for 15 years). So kind (and insightful?) to suggest that folk will "never understand...never face real challenges....re creating and doing."

Some (many) have had much/little experience with ACA/RC. And that experience (for most) runs a wide gamut and can't be simplified. There is the good, not so good, the complimentary and sometimes (yes) the questionable. And along the way, there is/has been, emotion, opinion, view, perspective, and of course memory. As a "public figure" though, can't one be both complimented and questioned? Or are some solemn sacred cows only to be bowed down to and never sullied?

RC is an organized and effective teacher in many realms of canyoneering, rescue, EMT, etc. And he can laugh, smile, critique and has poltical views too (even on public social sites). Countless have benefited from his effort (work, skill) in the past decade(s).

The framework and evoloution of ACA (as an organization and association) though? Maybe all tongues should be tied and stilled? And/or as so many (continue) to offer, it's nobody's business but RC? It's the ACA, (his group) and he can run it anyway he likes.

In spite of Shane's "specific, organized and credible" offer to re-tool and temporarily run ACA (and then follow that up with elections) it's still my view that ACA, if RC doesn't wish to lead it, should lapse.

Chiefly I say this as a compliment to RC. ACA's image (present and past tense) stands, bows or falls based on it's leader. Makes little sense to have another/others modify, bend or reshape a "castle, house or kingdom" that was mostly RC's from the inception. I've been involved with a number of organizations,(not corporations where name branding is important) where originators wished to scale down or retire. Often they anticipated passing the mantle to another and then on further reflection realized that "new people running the group" required/needed a new name and new organization and structure (if one at all).

And then that 'prickly" tinkering with the 'memory' and evolution of the Zion permit system? False memory (on my part, or others?) and the offerings (in private) by a number of Zion officials (long ago), when asked..."Well just who supports and endorses the system you are proposing?" Let's see, the two Utah Scout Councils didn't support it (they lodged concerns); Zion Canyoneering Coalition didn't support it (generally) (Subway needed some limits); and the groundswell of support the Zion officials claimed they were getting from the canyoneering community? (canyoneers at comedy central, I/we guess); and those offerings that commercial canyon guiding should (ACA trained guides) be allowed (canyoneers at xyz farmers market, I/we guess)? Zion officials, long ago, shared a name (group of names - NO) and organization (an association - YES) that they claimed was generally in line with what they proposed (in the proposed public permit area realm). Is someone suggesting/implying that someone other than RC was speaking on behalf of ACA? Maybe there were in fact further wrinkles to ACA involvement, (I was unaware of) but when the term "supporters" (of your permit plan alternative)was bandied about, there is NO loss of memory re what "so many" on the park side said.

The "drama"? Why blankety drama's (or questioning) in canyoneering, some/many ask. (so many naysayers; "just go do canyons"; life so simple?) RC claims he wishes to continue to teach (that's laudable), but then the belief/hope/anticipation that ACA will continue in like model or mantle? Try and compliment a fellow/organization and he/she seems not to care? Ask though about this or that re the 'organization - association" and the furror (hostility) and defensive volleys follow. And views, twisted and pummelled, if they don't match (the soft or hard opinions of) opponents. The game of life, caring about ourselves and others, giving others slack and moving on; or life as fight & flight, the good the bad (and constant tossing out of the 'dark' opponents).

And then synergy. Synergy in relationships, groups and associations (while at times challenging) can be an enormous boon and benefit (if one wishes or is willing to see it that way); and if one is willing to be flexible and adaptable.

And the night lights in the sky. So many stars in the skies (heavens) and some sparkle bright, some fade and others shoot from the sky. Some (seem) to view the universe through their own own lens and have and sense their own bright stars, that somehow, someway always sparkle? Getting along with others, talking about constellations and a sense of wonder. And then getting stung by a wasp/bee, and not thinking about stars or anything else, except, how that 'damn' "bee" hurt me. Oh stars & the buzzing that abounds, in some circles. The "terrible" "beauty" of it all. (borrowing from the Yates, the poet)

[ratagonia]

The "pot still simmers" in spite of the weekend lull (away from the internet). Interesting, a mini-drama that plays out on at least three stages. Bogley (filled with a myriad of plus or minus views); Yahoo Canyon's group (some (to some degree) agree with Phil, others really don't like Phil or 'piss ant' hate him), Ram soft critique, Shane a very "cogent" suggestion re operation of a new ACA and then much soft stroking, yea or nay re RC/ACA; and then the ACA site offering, similar to a passing eulogy (of sort), soft/strong encouragement, endorsement and then mild to very strong critique of any and all ACA/RC naysayers.

One commentator (on the ACA site) (more than others) caught my attention. His statement in part; "There are people who do things and people who criticize. Critics spend a lot of time wondering why the world isn't perfect. They will never understand because they never have had to face the real challenges that come along with creating and doing."

(And just how many political campaigns, corporations, organizations, associations and firms has the fellow/lady worked in?)

Let's see? Some of us have been (actively) involved in the political/civics and business arena for how many decades? (and some of us canyoneering for 15 years). So kind (and insightful?) to suggest that folk will "never understand...never face real challenges....re creating and doing."

Some (many) have had much/little experience with ACA/RC. And that experience (for most) runs a wide gamut and can't be simplified. There is the good, not so good, the complimentary and sometimes (yes) the questionable. And along the way, there is/has been, emotion, opinion, view, perspective, and of course memory. As a "public figure" though, can't one be both complimented and questioned? Or are some solemn sacred cows only to be bowed down to and never sullied?

RC is an organized and effective teacher in many realms of canyoneering, rescue, EMT, etc. And he can laugh, smile, critique and has poltical views too (even on public social sites). Countless have benefited from his effort (work, skill) in the past decade(s).

The framework and evoloution of ACA (as an organization and association) though? Maybe all tongues should be tied and stilled? And/or as so many (continue) to offer, it's nobody's business but RC? It's the ACA, (his group) and he can run it anyway he likes.

In spite of Shane's "specific, organized and credible" offer to re-tool and temporarily run ACA (and then follow that up with elections) it's still my view that ACA, if RC doesn't wish to lead it, should lapse.

Chiefly I say this as a compliment to RC. ACA's image (present and past tense) stands, bows or falls based on it's leader. Makes little sense to have another/others modify, bend or reshape a "castle, house or kingdom" that was mostly RC's from the inception. I've been involved with a number of organizations,(not corporations where name branding is important) where originators wished to scale down or retire. Often they anticipated passing the mantle to another and then on further reflection realized that "new people running the group" required/needed a new name and new organization and structure (if one at all).

And then that 'prickly" tinkering with the 'memory' and evolution of the Zion permit system? False memory (on my part, or others?) and the offerings (in private) by a number of Zion officials (long ago), when asked..."Well just who supports and endorses the system you are proposing?" Let's see, the two Utah Scout Councils didn't support it (they lodged concerns); Zion Canyoneering Coalition didn't support it (generally) (Subway needed some limits); and the groundswell of support the Zion officials claimed they were getting from the canyoneering community? (canyoneers at comedy central, I/we guess); and those offerings that commercial canyon guiding should (ACA trained guides) be allowed (canyoneers at xyz farmers market, I/we guess)? Zion officials, long ago, shared a name (group of names - NO) and organization (an association - YES) that they claimed was generally in line with what they proposed (in the proposed public permit area realm). Is someone suggesting/implying that someone other than RC was speaking on behalf of ACA? Maybe there were in fact further wrinkles to ACA involvement, (I was unaware of) but when the term "supporters" (of your permit plan alternative)was bandied about, there is NO loss of memory re what "so many" on the park side said.

The "drama"? Why blankety drama's (or questioning) in canyoneering, some/many ask. (so many naysayers; "just go do canyons"; life so simple?) RC claims he wishes to continue to teach (that's laudable), but then the belief/hope/anticipation that ACA will continue in like model or mantle? Try and compliment a fellow/organization and he/she seems not to care? Ask though about this or that re the 'organization - association" and the furror (hostility) and defensive volleys follow. And views, twisted and pummelled, if they don't match (the soft or hard opinions of) opponents. The game of life, caring about ourselves and others, giving others slack and moving on; or life as fight & flight, the good the bad (and constant tossing out of the 'dark' opponents).

And then synergy. Synergy in relationships, groups and associations (while at times challenging) can be an enormous boon and benefit (if one wishes or is willing to see it that way); and if one is willing to be flexible and adaptable.

And the night lights in the sky. So many stars in the skies (heavens) and some sparkle bright, some fade and others shoot from the sky. Some (seem) to view the universe through their own own lens and have and sense their own bright stars, that somehow, someway always sparkle? Getting along with others, talking about constellations and a sense of wonder. And then getting stung by a wasp/bee, and not thinking about stars or anything else, except, how that 'damn' "bee" hurt me. Oh stars & the buzzing that abounds, in some circles. The "terrible" "beauty" of it all. (borrowing from the Yates, the poet)

hard to read perhaps, but worth the effort, nailing certain aspects pretty well. Well said.

[CarpeyBiggs]

reading steve's posts is like playing mad-libs, where i'm never sure which noun or adjective to plug in where. maybe you can dumb it down for us who don't speak lawyer-ese?

[oldno7]

reading steve's posts is like playing mad-libs, where i'm never sure which noun or adjective to plug in where. maybe you can dumb it down for us who don't speak lawyer-ese?

Before Steve wrote that, I was going to call Nelson a "douche canoe". Boy am I glad I didn't, would have seemed petty.

[jman]

Steve has a new name in my book now - "Mr. Quotes". Every post by "him", he "uses" "thousands upon thousands" (exaggeration by just a little) of "quotations marks" around "almost" every noun, and adjective. Sure it maybe "correct" that way, but it "just" reminds me of the "SNL skit" with Chris Farley, doing the "air quotes" every time he speaks. And whenever I "read" one of Steve's post, it's "fun" to read it out loud while doing the "air quotes". "haha".

[nelsonccc]

His posts are hard to read. I usually give up half way through. Too much jumping around and reflection. Not only are the quotation marks everywhere but the (parentheses) are everywhere. There's at least 3 per paragraph. He must be a British Literature professor or something like that.

[nelsonccc]

Before Steve wrote that, I was going to call Nelson a "douche canoe". Boy am I glad I didn't, would have seemed petty.

Paddling......

[moab mark]

reading steve's posts is like playing mad-libs, where i'm never sure which noun or adjective to plug in where. maybe you can dumb it down for us who don't speak lawyer-ese?

X2

Reading between the jibberish I thought one of his points was that the ACA was a backer of the current permit system in Zion? Can one of you old timers give us a short history lesson on how the permit system came to be.

[ilipichicuma]

His posts are hard to read. I usually give up half way through. Too much jumping around and reflection. Not only are the quotation marks everywhere but the (parentheses) are everywhere. There's at least 3 per paragraph. He must be a British Literature professor or something like that.

I definitely agree with that. I always get confused just by glancing at them and stop reading.

[reflection]

Any of you academic wonderkinds ever read literature or make an attempt at writing fiction, or ever comment on political happenings? Ever heard the terms, conflict or tension as used in writing, or sensed the same in a life circumstance?

These boards, at least some of them, are often burdened with some pretty simplistic offerings and in some cases it's hard to catch the context or supposed nuance of a writer.

And, when it comes to the field of discussing ACA, other canyoneering groups, or even the leaders or kingpin canyoneering circles, it's at best confusing at times, at least to me. And if this confusion, this knowledge of the tension and conflict that exists at times, is not obvious to the rest of you, at least it is to me. There is no illusion in my mind, I don't understand all the conflicts or tensions and the result, at least in my mind, is images and more images and then silly (excuse me) quotes, to remind, at least me, that there are so many interpretations and meanings, but more importantly, so much bias and so many points of view. Yes, so many meanings to so many simple words and thoughts. Like what does out mean?

Ram, Phil, Tom, Shane, RC, as examples, all dynamic and complex people. To be simplistic about them, their actions, attitudes or styles, at least in my view, would be wildly missing the mark. Easiest I think to comment that they are terribly interesting people, and leave it at that. (I won't put interesting in quotes, but I'd like to, as that term means so many things to so many people; is one being negative or complimentary?). And if there is doubt, beyond interesting, I find many of these, and other folk, to be admirable and held in esteem. But then of course there are those that knock me/others and so in reverse fashion, I guess, one makes an effort at knocking back, but hopefully never with F...U or that you are an arse.

Calling something, or borrowing from an English poet the line, terrible beauty, is a whole lot easier for one than to say, canyoneering primarily is a process of enjoying the beauty of nature; but some of the social interactions, and apparent dysfunction in some groups or organizations is not so pretty, or it's close to terrible; or you naysayers, use your own words. And the wonder of stars and the sting of a bee, is that so abstract it's to be considered absurd? Ever sit in canyon and look in amazement and think aloud, my this is beautiful, and then seconds later, for no apparent reason, someone barks out, FU? Well, the images of Dorothy, Kansas, the Wizard of Oz & the witch come to mind too; another image, yikes!; yet some will say no that never happens and others will remind, just a figment of your imagination, false memory?

So to all of you, that always have it all figured out, be starkly blunt, and use terms like....garbage, allegation, insinuation, character assination...and putting it where the sun don't shine... Is it fun to huff and puff, and act tuff & mean? I didn't put quotes on it, but that was/is the writing of one, minutes ago on the canyons group, speaking of poor pummelled Phil.

Tension, conflict, not having answers and not always having figured it out; and then images when the confusion abounds.
What's your mental, cognitive process, each of you? Is it always concise, safe reasoning, or do you ever stretch ideas and wonder?

My big mistake I guess, has been in participating in civic, political blogs for over a decade. I've become starkly aware though that the mixed narratives, quotes, metaphors, don't fit for most of the readers here, some/many of whom are brighter lights than I. OK

And so back to the boards I guess, with an offering like, Awhshucks, I don't much care about the politics of ACA, & who cares about a one man national association? Gosh, let's just go to the roost, have our favorite eve or morning drink, get those electrolytes via emergenC and not even look or pay attention at the sun or the moon or the stars; Heck, let's jest tawk bout doin canyeeens. And if someone trips me/us up, boy golly I'll swear and cuss with, darn you, don't do that.

My, I think "terrible beauty" (I quote, as it's not my line) stars and bees bring more imagery to me. Excuse me, maybe next time out, we put a microscope or probe on those that wander into the vulger or mean spirited side? Yea, I'm confused again, it's just fine to spew invective, always, and to give those folk, a pass? And I forgot, I do like bees, particularly the honey bee hive across the street from me. And to you lovers of RC, I complimented the guy and offered that he, like others, is complex and most interesting, and he's got a brilliant side too...and the writer, he slides into home base, safe. Hopefully anyway! More of you confused? More want to whine and complain? Oh, the best view of some things in life, via a rear view mirror, on the way, Out.

[restrac2000]

His posts take me a while to decipher but I do seem learn some things.

Increasingly, I can see us all better off without the ACA existing at all. It had a mission. Some of it was successful, some of it failed. What it is "good" at can continue be done by multiple parties across the states (already happening). What it was bad at need not be continued. Would still support an ACA run by a true BOD but I am less enthusiastic. That could change.

I have always thought we would benefit from a collective voice. Yet, I have heard that many people don't like that idea; seems fair. We still have our letters and phone calls to influence people. We still have people on the internet to bring group attention to an issue when it is "worthy".

I will keep up my internet dialog until November 1st, if/when Rich decides to end the ACA or hand it over. I fear he may decide to keep the ACA without any changes. In which case.....I guess I may have failed.

Phillip

[restrac2000]

Poorly timed response on my part.... both in the pipeline at the same time I guess.

I struggle to read his post but do learn (editing my last post). I actually like some of the "poetic" elements used on the net....even the ones used to insult me (philthy phillip). Though reflection trumped that alliteration and made it a triplet (though I guess to be fair, a pattern requires at least 3 variables to begin with).

Haven't read Yates, may need to.

Actually respond better to Reflections style of feedback (its there in the context) than insults. Which I agree there is plenty of on the intertubes. Its an goal, of which I am imperfect, to add more "poetry" than insults. I may have some work to do after this last 6 weeks.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

If you are interested in turning the keys over to a board of directors I'd be happy to hustle this along for you. I run a multi-million dollar company, I sit on the BOD of three cooperations.... this canyoneering stuff is really much easier then my day job...

Anyhoo... I doubt you are actually leaving, but if you do I'd be happy to set up an intern BOD to handle the day to day business for the next three month's until democratic elections can be held. I'd even be happy to fund the ACA out of my own pocket and get the legal stuff in order until after the elections, I mean what the heck, my company lawyer isn't doing anything next week and I still have to pay him anyways.

I have already spoken with what amounts to a who's-who in the U.S. canyoneering world and would have no problem establishing a skilled, fair and diverse group of talented people to sit on the BOD, at least temporarily until an election can be held.

Nothing would make me happier than to see the ACA become what is was pitched to me back in 2000 when I was a loyal supporter. So how is that for an offer?"

FWIW: Rich said he was leaving the ACA and wanted interested parties to post a plan. Rich also stated that the membership would vote on the plans presented after November 1. I presented a legitimate and thoughtful plan that I expect the membership be allowed to vote on.... that is all.

[CarpeyBiggs]

FWIW: Rich said he was leaving the ACA and wanted interested parties to post a plan. Rich also stated that the membership would vote on the plans presented after November 1. I presented a legitimate and thoughtful plan that I expect the membership be allowed to vote on.... that is all.

wow. didn't expect that from you shane... too bad i'm not a member of the aca. or i'd vote for ya. will there still be merit badges?

[restrac2000]

He just provided some extra clarity....would be nice if the expectations were forthright and not reactive.

He has thus far knocked down any ideas as unimportant, moot or irrelevant. Not the best way to start interactions in a thread designed to hand over a business. From the directions of his comments it sounds like he wants the ACA to remain an individual driven company and not a democratic association; if not, than the many questions he has posted can be dealt with a membership vote.

Its sad that he sees his limited experience with the ACA in the early years as "evidence" that a democratic system can not work. It seems like the institutions he has named and modeled himself after have had success with some form of elected representation for 20 years. Are we that different as a community?

I personally doubt it, but I have never assumed we were cats needed to be herded. We haven't had a true opportunity to proves ourselves yet either.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

wow. didn't expect that from you shane... too bad i'm not a member of the aca. or i'd vote for ya. will there still be merit badges?

Rich also asked me about merit badges (along with several other questions) and this was my reply........

The specifics such as advocacy, bolts, guides, etc are EXACTLY what a varied board of directors representing a large cross section of canyoneers should be establishing. And you can't really do that until you have a BOD.

What I presented was a sound business model, which might be why you didn't recognize it. The first item of business the ACA needs to address is getting its paper work and finances in order. Items I clearly covered in my proposal, in addition to establishing a mechanism inside the organization for establishing and accomplishing future goals.

At this point in time discussing items like advocacy, bolts and guides is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[ratagonia]

Rich also asked me about merit badges (along with several other questions) and this was my reply........

The specifics such as advocacy, bolts, guides, etc are EXACTLY what a varied board of directors representing a large cross section of canyoneers should be establishing. And you can't really do that until you have a BOD.

What I presented was a sound business model, which might be why you didn't recognize it. The first item of business the ACA needs to address is getting its paper work and finances in order. Items I clearly covered in my proposal, in addition to establishing a mechanism inside the organization for establishing and accomplishing future goals.

At this point in time discussing items like advocacy, bolts and guides is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Good on ya Ice.

[rcwild]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just post a link to the thread so anyone interested can actually read all sides of the discussion?

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/s...ds-a-New-Owner