American Canyon Guides Association ACGA

[oldno7]

Well, if irony was beer, bogley would be having a great fest right now.

Irony being Rich has become a top poster on bogley

[restrac2000]

OMG..That's an argument that is cogent, on point, and does not involve the use of invective.

Patiently waiting the formation of a new American Canyoneering Association.

Ken

His comment does make me appear "blathering" and skilled in ad nauseum.

Thanks for the concise and thoughtful addition, Oldno...I could learn a thing or two

Phillip

[airman]

To the noob or casual participate of canyoneering.... I get it, I understand you don't have a grasp on why this stuff is important, but understand it is, or all the old dogs would not be growing at each other. This story has a long back history over 12 years in the making. It would be in the sports best interest if you at least tried to understand a little of what this is about.

But at least understand... Every time you stand in a permit line, rappel from a bolt, hire a guide, access through private property, descend a pristine all natural route, access beta, take a canyon class.... you are experiencing a portion of what this food fight is all about.... Things should all shake out in the end for the better, so just hang on and enjoy the show for now.....

Points taken. My comments were more directed at Phillip. I get that you and others have done a lot for the good of the sport. Should have been more clear.

I also appreciate the transparency. There is value in professionally and politely exposing problems in a public way. Otherwise many, including myself, would be even more ignorant of the issues.

My main point was about civility. In my professional career I sit on several boards and committees for professional associations in my industry. It's been my experience that internal "industry" bickering is more destructive than helpful. But if you say this is all for the good, I'll trust you. But I think it's safe to say that there is a large constituency of canyoneers that don't participate in these forums, and if there was a bit more professionalism, they would, and the sport would be positively benefited as a result.

I've been canyoneering consistently for over 20 years. I spend more time in the canyons than on the keyboard. Sorry if I don't understand the politics.

I think it might be best if I directed by energy elsewhere. I appreciate your contributions and wish you the very best.

[Bo_Beck]

Did you know that the human head weighs 10 lbs.?

[Iceaxe]

In my professional career I sit on several boards and committees for professional associations in my industry.

That is probably the real root of the problem... we are not dealing with a professional organization when dealing with the ACA. We are dealing with a specific individual that many respected canyoneers consider unreasonable/unprofessional.

A professional organization with boards and committees is much easier to deal with.

[Bo_Beck]

That is probably the real root of the problem... we are not dealing with a professional organization when dealing with the ACA. We are dealing with a specific individual that many respected canyoneers consider unreasonable/unprofessional.

A professional organization with boards and committees is much easier to deal with.

Then go git er did! The doors wide open!

[restrac2000]

Then go git er did! The doors wide open!

I hope its as wide open as it seems. A paying member here as soon as its official.

Phillip

[shae]

The Area Formerly Known as Mexico Canyoneering Association?

That rolls off the tongue nicely. I'll vote for it.

[shae]

"No Rich, it really is that simple. If you are interested in turning the keys over to a board of directors I'd be happy to hustle this along for you. I run a multi-million dollar company, I sit on the BOD of three cooperations.... this canyoneering stuff is really much easier then my day job...

Anyhoo... I doubt you are actually leaving, but if you do I'd be happy to set up an intern BOD to handle the day to day business for the next three month's until democratic elections can be held. I'd even be happy to fund the ACA out of my own pocket and get the legal stuff in order until after the elections, I mean what the heck, my company lawyer isn't doing anything next week and I still have to pay him anyways.

I have already spoken with what amounts to a who's-who in the U.S. canyoneering world and would have no problem establishing a skilled, fair and diverse group of talented people to sit on the BOD, at least temporarily until an election can be held.

Nothing would make me happier than to see the ACA become what is was pitched to me back in 2000 when I was a loyal supporter. So how is that for an offer?"

Perhaps I'm crazy...but I like Shane's idea. The title ACA seems to have some influence with important agencies. Why not try the BOD thing completely separate from Rich? Keep the standing "association" title but turn it into an actual collective pull of the community. It still has a lot of potential. I don't believe that bridge has been burned.

[oldno7]

Looks like you could do a startup anyway, Shae

https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/d...y=5058912-0111

[Iceaxe]

Looks like you could do a startup anyway, Shae

To really make the ACA work you would need Rich to get completely out of the way.... I mean really, its been 12 years and in that time Rich has managed to alienate just about everyone of any importants, alienate the majority of his loyal supporters, Rich has much less less support now than he did 12 years ago, he has done his share to fracture canyoneers as a community. And most importantly, he doesn't have and never will have the financial backing to make it work.

If Rich really cares about the ACA as he preaches, it's time for him to hop off the pot and give someone else a chance. I don't know of any company that would keep its CEO after 12 years of fail.

[shae]

I didn't put Shane's quote very well into the thread. His words are in the quotations above. I simply added my support for his idea.


He gave a suggestion on the ACA site that I think could be worth pursuing.

[bshwakr]

To really make the ACA work you would need Rich to get completely out of the way.... I mean really, its been 12 years and in that time Rich has managed to alienate just about everyone of any importants, alienate the majority of his loyal supporters, Rich has much less less support now than he did 12 years ago, he has done his share to fracture canyoneers as a community. And most importantly, he doesn't have and never will have the financial backing to make it work.

If Rich really cares about the ACA as he preaches, it's time for him to hop off the pot and give someone else a chance. I don't know of any company that would keep its CEO after 12 years of fail.

Give me a break Shane! The same could be said about you or anyone else involved in the community for that long.

k

[restrac2000]

Give me a break Shane! The same could be said about you or anyone else involved in the community for that long.

k

Very true....I have even caused some of the damage Shane describes within the last month. Nonetheless, only one person has ever really done so under the name of a community organization.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

Nonetheless, only one person has ever really done so under the name of a community organization.

That is the diffenrence... ^^^

I will not argue that I have championed my own agenda's, same can be said for every public canyoneer I know of.

[restrac2000]

Give me a break Shane! The same could be said about you or anyone else involved in the community for that long.

k

Due to side-effects from a new antibiotic I spent about 3 hours reading a large portion of the threads from the yahoo group between the years 2000-2002. Definitely some roots for historic and lasting tensions and relationships. I was actually shocked to remember how quickly the "community" went from "forming" to "performing". I think when the history is read 2 important themes come up:

1) Some of the greater benefits we see in the community definitely saw there foundation then. I was shocked to see how much of what we value was developed by community interaction and not just the ACA. Canyoneering styles, rating system, "canyoneering pamphlet" and a few other notable elements of our sport were the collaboration of the yahoo group in general. Beyond specific technical hard skills (blocks, mounter/mule, rope bag) the community hasn't relied on the ACA for direction as much as the organization is given credit. Its all there in those years.

2) For you bushwhacker:( Yahoo Message #2791 ) Rich "If the ACA is ever perceived as a threat to anyone's enjoyment of this sport, let me know personally what we can do to fix the problem and it will be fixed. If we do not exist to serve you, we should not exist at all." Rich was communicating to the broader canyoneering community, not just the 50ish ACA members at the time.

Many of us have done harm and good. Only the ACA executive director has done most of this in the name of "consensus of the canyoneering community" (#757). The same person who talked about voting rights, industry standard and eventual movement in the BOD.

Phillip

[ratagonia]

And the merry-go-round continues, except the different riders (players) mostly speak different code talk and narrative. Speak to an issue and interests? No, blather vulgarity, attack, deny, simplify, dodge and then avoid cogent issues "some" have offered. Some seem to honestly engage; others lack the instinct, skill or interest....others scoff.

A concern (issue) I/others have voiced is the use of the term "Association" and image "branding" when the ACA corporate and organizational structure is NOT a registered collective class of people, but rather an individual. Some on this site - even 'reported lawyers" - seem to care less and are apathetic in engaging on the point. OR, the game dodge-em arrives and the "evidence" suggests folk should just strap up and go canyoneering, and move away from this "conflict" muddle.

Some/so many seem to either lack the insight re activity in the ACA (RC) for the past decade, or they are insulted that "a public figure" is being spoken about. Others malign the ideal that this continuing drama has any relevance in any setting.

I/others remember years back, speaking with "Ray and Cindy" in Zion, ideas were tossed about, options offered and the "bottom line" became, "Oh, ACA has endorsed what we are offering". The sweetest sound, the canyon wren calling...who needs a point of view if ACA dogma offers. (but that's in the past....?)

Long ago Shane rode into town (RC) and (thought he) brought order to the troubled canyoneering valley? But now Shane apparently saddles up and asks someone (anybody? really?) to save the day (purchase the web & organizational name). The big tent, maybe, never fit the business model of the modern day canyoneering crowd. Delusional really to toss the "ownership" to an unknown and untested bidder. A more responsible offering would be to let the ACA brand lapse, continue Canyons and Crags (if that's RC wish) and run training and courses under that name and moniker (Canyons and Crags, a dba for the sole proprietor RC). The web site could be re branded as Canyoneering, for the masses. And future canyon fests? - once upon a time Tom Fests - RC, C &C Zion Cyn fest. Nothing wrong with that in my view. Full disclosure and folk knowing what they are, and are not, connecting to.

November 1, a draw down; or maybe, instead of passing the baton (a real bad idea) the lead actor "in this play" could continue with much of what he is doing, but this time do it under his own personal name and "small" private business. Nothing stops him from continuing to send out emails, organize, teach, train and sponsor events. And with that ACA crown taken off his head, he will have no one to respond to but himself, and the direction he seeks professionally or personally to pursue will be his alone.

The gift of imagination? Imagining what another might think and feel. I don't have to agree with others and others need not agree with me. But then the cognitive offerings, or lack of, amazing really as some/so many scoff at serious engagement in discussion. And yes the dark drama, the stage curtain closes, but maybe only temporarily, until the genie puts a new "heart/soul" in RC and ACA (re-directed) sails on once again? Who knows? And then of course who, just who, has a stake (say) in all of this, and who really should ride with the banner? Those ACA canyon leaders, or those wishing to have nothing to do with the ACA canyon leadership (and it's points) program? Points of view from various corners, most sullied, if they don't match "another speakers" state of mind.

How to "simplify"? Let the ACA organizational and web name slide, and if you/he RC like, continue the vision/program/energy under the C&C registered dba moniker. But then some would say of course, this is nobodys' business but RC's? Well, welcome to the land of public and public figures; where most often, public opinion matters; but then some (naysayers) would argue with that - oh yea - lets just go do canyons, this is all a big fricken waste of time? Oops, the canyon wren just got swallowed by a raven. (who cares, about a point of view, and who cares to be civil and cogent in a discussion - by golly, lets be boistrous and brash, and shout, shout some more, - so mind numbing? so insightful and intellectual?) Lemmings, running to the rescue or running off a canyon cliff (really)?

And this new Canyon Guide Assoc. They should be able to pull interested parties from a quiver of training venues all over the west. Why does someone need to be an ACA canyon leader, if they have at least, comparative training and tutoring elsewhere? And really folk, want to be a guide? Print a card, get a web site and lodge a liability insurance policy with an agency. Apply with the FS or BLM, or operate on private land. Once you start guiding, no one will know or care that you have either "virtual or real" training. The arc of professional guiding on public lands..another discussion for another day.

Tom

[bshwakr]

Due to side-effects from a new antibiotic I spent about 3 hours reading a large portion of the threads from the yahoo group between the years 2000-2002. Definitely some roots for historic and lasting tensions and relationships. I was actually shocked to remember how quickly the "community" went from "forming" to "performing". I think when the history is read 2 important themes come up:

1) Some of the greater benefits we see in the community definitely saw there foundation then. I was shocked to see how much of what we value was developed by community interaction and not just the ACA. Canyoneering styles, rating system, "canyoneering pamphlet" and a few other notable elements of our sport were the collaboration of the yahoo group in general. Beyond specific technical hard skills (blocks, mounter/mule, rope bag) the community hasn't relied on the ACA for direction as much as the organization is given credit. Its all there in those years.

2) For you bushwhacker:( Yahoo Message #2791 ) Rich "If the ACA is ever perceived as a threat to anyone's enjoyment of this sport, let me know personally what we can do to fix the problem and it will be fixed. If we do not exist to serve you, we should not exist at all." Rich was communicating to the broader canyoneering community, not just the 50ish ACA members at the time.

Many of us have done harm and good. Only the ACA executive director has done most of this in the name of "consensus of the canyoneering community" (#757). The same person who talked about voting rights, industry standard and eventual movement in the BOD.

Phillip

I vaguely recall being there at the beginning of both the Yahoo Group and the ACA. I know what Rich wanted it to become and what it eventually became. I sat through many meetings about it's future and nobody in the overall community took the initiative to improve it just like nobody will take the initiative now. Let's not be naive though, anyone really involved in the canyoneering community knows that the ACA had become primarily a training entity. So for me, I find it futile to 'pile on', especially when we were all silent observers.

k

[ratagonia]

Wow...to refer to someone as a "whiny bitch" (someone who hasn't used any such language in any of his many posts on this thread), all I can say is: look in the mirror.

Nat

Nelsonccc always acts like a whiny little bitch - it is his Internet Persona. 500 more posts and he will be able to buy a pair of huecos...

(just amusing myself, Christian, please take no offense...)

[ratagonia]

Did you know that the human head weighs 10 lbs.?

That is probably the real root of the problem...

(Jes' sayin')