American Canyon Guides Association ACGA

[Iceaxe]

No problem, I am used to the "guilt by association" bag I drag around here on Bogely.

[nelsonccc]

Wow. Just read this entire thread and the one over on the ACA site. I've always heard great things about Rich and the classes offered. I've been doing canyons since 1998 when I first did Pine Creek and truly started 'canyoneering'. I still consider myself new. I probably would have benefited from an ACA course in the early days since most of my rope experiece came from doing aid climbing and big walls. I hope the classes are still offered for those that need it.

From this thread it appears that there are those who don;t like Rich and those who do. This Phillip guy sounds like a bit of a crybaby. I would in no way consider myself aware of all the issues or be naive enough to think that there is even a shred of truth being posted on here from any of those involved in this latest round of canyoneering politics. BUT......from just reading this thread it appears that this Phillip guy has a bone to pick and is actively trying to make this into a Rich bashing thread.

I'm not sure who posted it but someone said that it's just canyoneering. I agree. It's just not that complicated. If someone is unhappy with the ACA then start your own thing and quit crying.

[reflection]

And the merry-go-round continues, except the different riders (players) mostly speak different code talk and narrative. Speak to an issue and interests? No, blather vulgarity, attack, deny, simplify, dodge and then avoid cogent issues "some" have offered. Some seem to honestly engage; others lack the instinct, skill or interest....others scoff.

A concern (issue) I/others have voiced is the use of the term "Association" and image "branding" when the ACA corporate and organizational structure is NOT a registered collective class of people, but rather an individual. Some on this site - even 'reported lawyers" - seem to care less and are apathetic in engaging on the point. OR, the game dodge-em arrives and the "evidence" suggests folk should just strap up and go canyoneering, and move away from this "conflict" muddle.

Some/so many seem to either lack the insight re activity in the ACA (RC) for the past decade, or they are insulted that "a public figure" is being spoken about. Others malign the ideal that this continuing drama has any relevance in any setting.

I/others remember years back, speaking with "Ray and Cindy" in Zion, ideas were tossed about, options offered and the "bottom line" became, "Oh, ACA has endorsed what we are offering". The sweetest sound, the canyon wren calling...who needs a point of view if ACA dogma offers. (but that's in the past....?)

Long ago Shane rode into town (RC) and (thought he) brought order to the troubled canyoneering valley? But now Shane apparently saddles up and asks someone (anybody? really?) to save the day (purchase the web & organizational name). The big tent, maybe, never fit the business model of the modern day canyoneering crowd. Delusional really to toss the "ownership" to an unknown and untested bidder. A more responsible offering would be to let the ACA brand lapse, continue Canyons and Crags (if that's RC wish) and run training and courses under that name and moniker (Canyons and Crags, a dba for the sole proprietor RC). The web site could be re branded as Canyoneering, for the masses. And future canyon fests? - once upon a time Tom Fests - RC, C &C Zion Cyn fest. Nothing wrong with that in my view. Full disclosure and folk knowing what they are, and are not, connecting to.

November 1, a draw down; or maybe, instead of passing the baton (a real bad idea) the lead actor "in this play" could continue with much of what he is doing, but this time do it under his own personal name and "small" private business. Nothing stops him from continuing to send out emails, organize, teach, train and sponsor events. And with that ACA crown taken off his head, he will have no one to respond to but himself, and the direction he seeks professionally or personally to pursue will be his alone.

The gift of imagination? Imagining what another might think and feel. I don't have to agree with others and others need not agree with me. But then the cognitive offerings, or lack of, amazing really as some/so many scoff at serious engagement in discussion. And yes the dark drama, the stage curtain closes, but maybe only temporarily, until the genie puts a new "heart/soul" in RC and ACA (re-directed) sails on once again? Who knows? And then of course who, just who, has a stake (say) in all of this, and who really should ride with the banner? Those ACA canyon leaders, or those wishing to have nothing to do with the ACA canyon leadership (and it's points) program? Points of view from various corners, most sullied, if they don't match "another speakers" state of mind.

How to "simplify"? Let the ACA organizational and web name slide, and if you/he RC like, continue the vision/program/energy under the C&C registered dba moniker. But then some would say of course, this is nobodys' business but RC's? Well, welcome to the land of public and public figures; where most often, public opinion matters; but then some (naysayers) would argue with that - oh yea - lets just go do canyons, this is all a big fricken waste of time? Oops, the canyon wren just got swallowed by a raven. (who cares, about a point of view, and who cares to be civil and cogent in a discussion - by golly, lets be boistrous and brash, and shout, shout some more, - so mind numbing? so insightful and intellectual?) Lemmings, running to the rescue or running off a canyon cliff (really)?

And this new Canyon Guide Assoc. They should be able to pull interested parties from a quiver of training venues all over the west. Why does someone need to be an ACA canyon leader, if they have at least, comparative training and tutoring elsewhere? And really folk, want to be a guide? Print a card, get a web site and lodge a liability insurance policy with an agency. Apply with the FS or BLM, or operate on private land. Once you start guiding, no one will know or care that you have either "virtual or real" training. The arc of professional guiding on public lands..another discussion for another day.

[restrac2000]

This Phillip guy seems like a whiny bitch.
BUT......from just reading this thread it appears that this Phillip guy has a bone to pick and is actively trying to make this into a Rich bashing thread.

Could be. Not the reason I started engaging the ideas or thread. Feel free to guess at my intent though.

Phillip

[rcwild]

I/others remember years back, speaking with "Ray and Cindy" in Zion, ideas were tossed about, options offered and the "bottom line" became, "Oh, ACA has endorsed what we are offering". The sweetest sound, the canyon wren calling...who needs a point of view if ACA dogma offers. (but that's in the past....?)

Mr. Lewis,

Next time you talk to Ray ask him who came into his office claiming to be the access coordinator for the ACA. You might find it entertaining. It wasn't me.

[nat]

Wow.

This Phillip guy seems like a whiny bitch.
.

Wow...to refer to someone as a "whiny bitch" (someone who hasn't used any such language in any of his many posts on this thread), all I can say is: look in the mirror.

Nat

[Sombeech]

Thanks to Rich for all he has done for the community which has not been a small contribution by any means. Thanks to Ram for all he has done for the community, again no small contribution. Thanks to Tom for all he has done for the community and the community gear needs/wants, thanks to Shane for all he as done for the community with really good beta, and thanks to all who are responsible canyoneers and for all they do for the community.

Too bad, this seems like a great team right here.

You guys should go to some marriage counseling and just get to the part where they say "pick a thing about your partner you don't like, and just drop it" for hell's sake.

[mdd]

You guys should go to some marriage counseling and just get to the part where they say "pick a thing about your partner you don't like, and just drop it" for hell's sake.

As a coworker of mine is fond of saying, "This is like snowshoeing through a river of shit".

To be honest the best post I've seen from all of this is the suggestion that bogley take over the ACA. And that is because bogley-ites seem to be the only ones acting like rational, adult people in all of this. Which is pretty telling if you think about it.

Either that or this is an elaborate community-wide punking put on by Phillip and Rich.

Barring that I think a lot of posters on here, the ACA site and the egroup should take a vacation from posting. Please? Just a few day cooling off period?


M

[restrac2000]

As a coworker of mine is fond of saying, "This is like snowshoeing through a river of shit".

To be honest the best post I've seen from all of this is the suggestion that bogley take over the ACA. And that is because bogley-ites seem to be the only ones acting like rational, adult people in all of this. Which is pretty telling if you think about it.

Either that or this is an elaborate community-wide punking put on by Phillip and Rich.

Barring that I think a lot of posters on here, the ACA site and the egroup should take a vacation from posting. Please? Just a few day cooling off period?


M

Not a punk, never figured out the subtleties of internet humor to pull any joke off, nonetheless one of this scale ;^)

There will likely be a few day cooling off period simply because its the weekend, not as much use on the forums then. Makes sense.

At this point, I firmly believe such mitigation likely only leads to the ACA status quo. I can't control that as a long term outcome but so much but I can direct my actions to try and prevent that.

There are times (99% of the time in regards to the ACA) where I have taken much greater diplomatic care with my approach. I can't do that anymore. We just differ in that regard, in this specific situation, I guess Mike.

Phillip

[tanya]

Too bad, this seems like a great team right here.

There are too many macho men and egos in the room - you all need to make room for some energetic kid who does not take sides!

It's entertaining, but I know its not easy on your old hearts guys! You are all getting up there and can't take a lot of of this anymore.

Why is the ACA not ran like the business with one owner in charge anyway instead of having all this fighting? As a business owner I sure would not want a board telling me how to do things. I want to do them my way. That's where the fun is. I know many of you own your own business as well and would not want anyone telling you what do to.

But then I have not read all the posts and may be totally on the wrong track? .. but I just felt like chiming in.

[airman]

As was said elsewhere, following this thread is like slowing down on the freeway to take a closer look at a wreck. And I'll add that it sounds like talk radio in the background.



From the viewpoint of someone who loves canyons more than politics, the relentless implementation of good ideas over endless complaining, and words of encouragement over malice, please tone it down.

Can't we all just get along?



Believe me, I get the point. I don't support unethical and deceptive practices, like holding out a private business as an association. I don't know enough to make a firm conclusion that that's want's going on here, but if it is, I totally empathize with the frustration. Candidly, I know very little about the ACA.

But in the end, I'd suggest there are better ways of handling the conflict than on an internet forum. Actually do something about it that might make a real difference. Call the person, sit down with them, reason together. Be civil. Don't fight fire with fire. Work it out. But by all means, please set your ego aside, put away the vinegar, and be cool. If that doesn't work, I doubt anything else will. If you've been there, done that, then go compete in the marketplace. Be the solution. As a last resort, our society has provided a formal means for resolving disputes. It's expensive and I don't recommend it. But fixing it is more effective than complaining about it.

[spinesnaper]

This is inside baseball. I think one is seeing the growing pains that every organization must go through. I hope a leadership core comes together to resolve this in a positive way. I see no reason why an ACA can't be a professionally run, not for profit, that looks to the best interests of a growing American canyoneering community. As such, it can look forward to the support of dues paying members. Inevitably with this type of organization, there will be many more members than the active leadership core. Politically it is not always best if the most unhappy vocal individuals come to the forefront and take up the mantle of leadership. Ultimately what counts is the concerted action of a dedicated core of like minded individuals. Once you've got that figured out, please let the rest of us know where to send the membership checks and what the sportscience t-shirt will look like.

Ken

[nelsonccc]

Wow...to refer to someone as a "whiny bitch" (someone who hasn't used any such language in any of his many posts on this thread), all I can say is: look in the mirror.

Nat

You're right, fixed it.

What I was trying to say is that from the outside looking in and reading all this, the phillip guy keeps saying the same thing over and over. We get it, ad nauseam. That was the point I was trying to make. He seems like a petulant child that doesn't get to play with someone elses toys. That may or may not be true but after reading all of this, that's the impression I got.

[restrac2000]

You're right, fixed it.

What I was trying to say is that from the outside looking in and reading all this, the phillip guy keeps saying the same thing over and over. We get it, ad nauseam. That was the point I was trying to make. He seems like a petulant child that doesn't get to play with someone elses toys. That may or may not be true but after reading all of this, that's the impression I got.

Both Piss Ant (thought Little Piss Ant always sounds better) and Petulant Child both have a nice ring to them.

I agree that many people get that impression.

Phillip

[tanya]

I have no clue who Phillip is, but Nelson is awesome and certainly far too large to be a piss ant.

[Iceaxe]

Actually do something about it that might make a real difference.

Hahaa.... but that is where the problem orginiates.... all of those commenting, complaining or whining have done something about it. They all have invested a tremendous amount of time, money and energy into the sport of canyoneering and they are not happy that their contribution and/or work is being rip apart and undermined by anther party. The reason some of this is being handled in a open forum is that has provan to be the only way to actually get anything done in a transparent manner...

To the noob or casual participate of canyoneering.... I get it, I understand you don't have a grasp on why this stuff is important, but understand it is, or all the old dogs would not be growing at each other. This story has a long back history over 12 years in the making. It would be in the sports best interest if you at least tried to understand a little of what this is about.

But at least understand... Every time you stand in a permit line, rappel from a bolt, hire a guide, access through private property, descend a pristine all natural route, access beta, take a canyon class.... you are experiencing a portion of what this food fight is all about.... Things should all shake out in the end for the better, so just hang on and enjoy the show for now.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Hahaa.... but that is where the problem orginiates.... all of those commenting, complaining or whining have done something about it. They all have invested a tremendous amount of time, money and energy into the sport of canyoneering and they are not happy that their contribution and/or work is being rip apart and undermined by anther party. The reason some of this is being handled in a open forum is that has provan to be the only way to actually get anything done in a transparent manner...

To the noob or casual participate of canyoneering.... I get it, I understand you don't have a grasp on why this stuff is important, but understand it is, or all the old dogs would not be growing at each other. This story has a long back history over 12 years in the making. It would be in the sports best interest if you at least tried to understand a little of what this is about.

But at least understand... Every time you stand in a permit line, rappel from a bolt, hire a guide, access through private property, descend a pristine all natural route, access beta, take a canyon class.... you are experiencing a portion of what this food fight is all about.... Things should all shake out in the end for the better, so just hang on and enjoy the show for now.....

echoes a lot of my thoughts as well. thanks shane.

[Iceaxe]

Mr. Lewis,

Next time you talk to Ray ask him who came into his office claiming to be the access coordinator for the ACA. You might find it entertaining. It wasn't me.

Do you really want to go there Rich? I still have my correspondence with Zion NP over the permit system, In my humble opinion the ACA has more to do with the current permit system mess and quota's then anyone....... But of course you (the ACA) was working other objectives at the time like ACA guiding inside the park and requiring an ACA merit badge to obtain a permit, yada, yada....

I said it at the time and I'm even more convinced it is true with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight... The ACA position with regards to the Zion permit system is best described as the "Neville Chamberlain" approach.

[oldno7]

Herein lies some of the major dig----

How would these land agencies treat the American Canyoneering "ASSOCIATION" (ACA)

Verses--The American Carlson Sole Proprietorship (ACSP)

My guess is, many doors are opened when you claim to be an association, rather than a lone entity(sole proprietorship)falsely claiming to be an actual association, representing yourself!!

And if you falsely claim 4-5000 members, because thats how many have signed up for your web site since inception, is once again, a deception.

How many of the land agencies involved with the recent workshop held at the ACA Rendezvous, actually understood they were dealing with a sole proprietorship rather than an association??

[spinesnaper]

Herein lies some of the major dig----

How would these land agencies treat the American Canyoneering "ASSOCIATION" (ACA)

Verses--The American Carlson Sole Proprietorship (ACSP)

My guess is, many doors are opened when you claim to be an association, rather than a lone entity(sole proprietorship)falsely claiming to be an actual association, representing yourself!!

And if you falsely claim 4-5000 members, because thats how many have signed up for your web site since inception, is once again, a deception.

How many of the land agencies involved with the recent workshop held at the ACA Rendezvous, actually understood they were dealing with a sole proprietorship rather than an association??

OMG..That's an argument that is cogent, on point, and does not involve the use of invective.

Patiently waiting the formation of a new American Canyoneering Association.

Ken