Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay (what would you do)

[bshwakr]

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[CarpeyBiggs]

certainly, this member of the group can feel free to respond to this thread personally... especially if their actions are defensible. if there's nothing to hide, and you want to clear up speculation, you should just tell the story. clearly at least a few members of the group are following the discussion on here.

to suggest that the climbing community is never critical of other people is simply not true. spend some time on supertopo, gets out of hand there too. in fact most public user groups who are competing for restricted access to backcountry resources seem to be fairly critical of each other, depending on what side of the argument you are on. however, that's not to justify the speculation i made, because i may have misrepresented you, and i apologize.

also, this isn't a personal attack against one member of that group specifically, but it is a criticism of that group in general. if that offends any of them, i have to wonder why. if they didn't do anything wrong, then all they have to do is say so, and we can figure out why the park decided to state publicly that permit violations were pending.

the reason i am being critical is this... our community is often under scrutiny, by land managers, policy makers, and by each other. as a community, we are trying access a resource that is scarce by nature and heavily regulated (at least in zion, navajo lands, and grand canyon.) how we act individually has the ability to effect how each of us in the community access these resources, whether through increased regulation, fees, permits, or completely closing off canyons, like the kaibeto chapter has done.

so when someone has a high profile trip where they break the rules, it reflects poorly on the community at large. it's especially important right now because grand canyon is developing their new backcountry management plan, and deciding what role canyoneering will play. these kinds of situations do nothing to help the policy making there. grand canyon already has a history of being highly regulated when it comes to backcountry use. who knows what changes the new plan will have for canyoneers. we need to give them every reason to consider our point of view. credibility takes a big hit when people don't play by the rules.

[Deathcricket]

If your groups are all in on it, it would be very difficult to prove. But to me, you know it's breaking the rules and you have to mislead a law enforcement official. Plus, you are always going to face more scrutiny in a highly visible canyon like Mystery. What if it's two scout groups in Orderville, one with 12 people and the other with 6 and they join up? They weren't poaching, but they were exceeding group size. Where does it stop?

k

Very good point Kip. My personal opinion is that one larger group has less an impact than 2 smaller groups. And the only reason I have to even back up my opinion is rope pulls wearing against the sandstone. 1 would be better than 2. That's pretty much the only factor I can even think of. Again we are talking about adult competent canyoneers and not bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

But I'm sure the Zion management has some other reason for limiting the group size to 6 which I can't fathom. My only guess is so one group could not nab all the 12 tickets and screw another group out of it. Nothing to do with canyon impact or safety. Actually I just checked and looks like there are 14 reserved permits and at least 12 walk ins. So there goes that theory.....

[mdd]

I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

The reason is Deindividuation, and it is a well-studied psychological phenomena and is seeing even more study as our society goes ever more online.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

And climbers treat each other like that all of the time. Just go on mountain project and read any thread about stolen draws left on a route (of which there are many).

M

[canyoncaver]

Yeah, sounds like our anonymous "person on trip" doesn't have too much experience with the climbing community. It tends to be way nastier over there IMO. Canyoneers are quite civil in comparison.

[Iceaxe]

Yeah, sounds like our anonymous "person on trip" doesn't have too much experience with the climbing community. It tends to be way nastier over there IMO. Canyoneers are quite civil in comparison.

x2

Climbers can be viscous by comparison, at least the climbers outside the sports gym.

[bshwakr]

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[tdoughty]

You want vicious? Take a look at the years long feud still underway on the 'wings of steel" climbing thread on Supertopo....In fact it gets so bad over there they have a script so you can actually filter out posts made by persistently obnoxious individuals! Bogley is tame.......

[Iceaxe]

You want vicious? Take a look at the years long feud still underway on the 'wings of steel" climbing thread on Supertopo....

Wings of Steel
1686 posts on the topic
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...topic_id=72849

[tanya]

I would have wanted to be carried out by you guys right then and there and not wait.

[canyoncaver]

It doesn't matter what the patient or the rescuer "wants." In a falling accident if the responders are untrained to clear the spine or don't have gear to provide adequate spinal immobilization, then they must wait for someone to bring either the training or the gear. If a WFR or paramedic had been there, it sounds like this spine could have been cleared. With the responders' level of training, it was prudent to wait for more help. If you would like the magical power of clearing the spine, please seek WFR training as Tom suggested. I highly recommend it to anyone that goes canyoneering.

[Spidey]

bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon! The last time we did Imlay we were 10 hours from West rim trail head to temple of Sinewava, with the canyon in keeper mode.
Given where this thread has gone I won't discuss how many of us there were.

[ratagonia]

Replying to my own post, lol. So they did have permits for everyone, but went over the 6 person limit by having a 7 person group (2+5). I think she might be under the impression the group limit is 12 in the canyon, which is an easy mistake since most of them are and the canyon limit is 12 like she said. So it's a BS charge IMO and probably a slap on the wrist since everyone did have permits, they just formed a "supergroup" of 7 people which is forbidden. But again, how do you prove they were "together" in the canyon?

BS Charge? Huh?

Group Size
Large groups increase impacts on the backcountry. Group size is limited to a maximum of 12 people sharing the same affiliation (school, club, scout troop, family, friends) in the same drainage, route, or backcountry trail on the same day. This is strictly enforced; violators will be cited. The group size limit for all canyoneering trips other than the Narrows, Left Fork, Pine Creek, Orderville, and Keyhole Canyons is six people per day.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/canyoneering.htm

Is any rule you find inconvenient a "BS Charge"? How about driving drunk, if you only have to go a few blocks???

But really, sounds like a whole lot of not taking responsibility for one's own actions.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Very good point Kip. My personal opinion is that one larger group has less an impact than 2 smaller groups. And the only reason I have to even back up my opinion is rope pulls wearing against the sandstone. 1 would be better than 2. That's pretty much the only factor I can even think of. Again we are talking about adult competent canyoneers and not bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

But I'm sure the Zion management has some other reason for limiting the group size to 6 which I can't fathom. My only guess is so one group could not nab all the 12 tickets and screw another group out of it. Nothing to do with canyon impact or safety. Actually I just checked and looks like there are 14 reserved permits and at least 12 walk ins. So there goes that theory.....

and your doctorate in Recreation Management is from where???

Physical impacts vs. group size has been studied extensively, though not in Zion. While I disagree with the current group sizes, and the way in which those group sizes were set, those are the rules. Calling BS on the rules, and following the rules are not the same thing.

The group size limits in Zion are primarily to address social encounter issues. If you have the time, you might find the reading available here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/

entertaining. All you wanted to know about the Zion Backcountry Plan - and MORE!!!

Tom

[Deathcricket]

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon! The last time we did Imlay we were 10 hours from West rim trail head to temple of Sinewava, with the canyon in keeper mode.
Given where this thread has gone I won't discuss how many of us there were.

Hehe perhaps bad choice of words bro (on my part). I'm sure your group is awesome but as a category I'm sure damage is more likely to be caused by a huge group of 24 teenagers rather than a group of 7 adult canyoneers. I can cite personal experience of an encounter on Pine Mountain where they were rolling massive 200 pound boulders off a ledge with no regard to the possibility of hikers below. I almost got into a fistfight with the scout leader, but realized having 24 witnesses against me probably wasn't in my best interests.

The discussion though is about a group of 2+5 joining forces to be 1 above the max of 6. Of course Mr. Helmet Nazi is aflame with outrage and unable to see straight. Huge surprise there. But in my opinion this is a BS charge. There is still the same number of people going through the canyon, but instead of a group of 5 then a group of 2 more, it's 7 all on the same rope. Most canyons in Zion have a 12 person max, they all had permits issued, honest mistake, they get off with a warning IMO. Hopefully we learn the verdict.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor;

I would like to know what the other member of the party was doing. They should have been paying attention to how the other person was rigging the rappel.

[Iceaxe]

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon!

Its not your scout troop that is the issue.... its the bottom tier scout troops.... I've noticed scout troops suffer many of the same problems that the off-road and ATV crowd have to deal with, and that is a few bad apples give everyone else a large black eye.

If you witness one poorly led or out of control scout troop you instantly forget about the other ten troops that were well behaved and doing it the right way.

[ratagonia]

The discussion though is about a group of 2+5 joining forces to be 1 above the max of 6. Of course Mr. Helmet Nazi is aflame with outrage and unable to see straight. Huge surprise there. But in my opinion this is a BS charge. There is still the same number of people going through the canyon, but instead of a group of 5 then a group of 2 more, it's 7 all on the same rope. Most canyons in Zion have a 12 person max, they all had permits issued, honest mistake, they get off with a warning IMO. Hopefully we learn the verdict.

If you do the reading, O Cricket of Death, you would discover that I took great umbrage at the Park Service's 11th hour change of Pristine Zone group size from 12 to 6.

I think you are deliberately missing the point. The Park has a rule. If the Canyoneering Community wants to be a player in the managing the park game (and we do), if we want a seat at the table, we probably need to be considered a "rule-conforming-to community" by the Park Service. Each time a GROUP gets caught breaking the rule, we, as a community, lose credence with the Park Service.

(a separate debate could ensue as to whether we have any credence in the first place - side issue!)

The group's plan changed so they chose not conform to the rules. Then they frakked up and broke TWO ankles, requiring a helicopter rescue. They were not smart enough to go out the Sneak Route, or to break their group up, or otherwise come back into conformance with the rules.

So, DC, I agree the rule is BS. But the citation is not. The rule exists. Breaking the rule, then drawing attention to yourselves by demonstrating gross incompetence yields a citation. No big surprise. Take the citation and say "thank you sir". Or go before the magistrate and argue that the rule is BS. But don't complain about the CITATION being BS. Please.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

Laughable. Go to the Supertopo website's forum and read the "Wings of Steel" thread, for one mild example.

Climbing community can be just as brutal.

[canyonguru]