Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay (what would you do)

[trackrunner]

I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

agree. and I would add probably not the best to teach or practice new techniques in. better canyons for that.

(comment is general comment since the thread has changed and not commenting on this specific imlay group)

[skiclimb3287]

The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

I find myself checking people verbally in this particular situation (well, not exactly "this", as I am not skilled enough to descend Imlay...yet). Most of my canyoneering trips involve at least 1 noob. Every noob I take along has to come and practice rappelling with me before getting into a canyon. I always teach to clip in to the anchor system with a safety tether and lock the biner, next to get on rappel and cinch up the rope until weight is on the rope and there is slack in the safety line. Once they ensure they are locked in and the rope is holding them, they can then unclip from the anchor. When in a canyon and approached with an anchor where I can not physically check each person, I will go through the list verbally with them: Are you clipped in? Is your rappel device hooked onto the rope and locking biner locked? Is your weight on the rope and not on your tether? Ok, then unclip the tether you are good to go. By assuring that each persons weight is on the rope, they are then sure (as am I) that they are clipped into the correct side of the biner block. I will do this even if we are rappelling double stranded.

[CarpeyBiggs]

and this story just keeps taking new twists... a failed natural anchor caused the first fall and broken foot. and, no permit? wow.

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. Members of the group began their descent of Imlay on July 16th. This canyon has one of the park’s more difficult canyoneering routes, with over 20 rappels, extremely cold water, and numerous potholes requiring specialized techniques for escape. As group members were completing a 10 foot rappel using a log jammed crosswise in the canyon as an anchor, the log anchor failed and the 20-year-old man who was on the rope suffered a possible lower leg fracture. The injured man was moved a short distance down canyon to a wide area and all spent the night there. In the morning, one party member stayed with the injured man while the remaining five canyoneers continued on the route, promising to send help once their trip was complete. Early in the evening of July 17th, they arrived at the last rappel 140 feet above the Zion Narrows. The first canyoneer to complete the free-hanging rappel then hurried to the Temple of Sinawava Trailhead two miles downstream to report the incident. Group members were using the carabineer block technique at the anchor, allowing party members to rappel on one strand of rope while using two strands of rope tied together to function as a pull cord. If used correctly, a carabineer and knot jam against the anchor prevents the rope from pulling through the anchor while the canyoneer is on rope. Connecting the rappel device to the correct side of the anchor is critical. The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor; when she put weight on it, she fell the entire distance into the shallow water below – a distance equivalent to 13 stories. Her life was likely saved by the friction or bunching of the rope whipping through the anchor, slowing her fall just enough at the last second. While a ranger at the trailhead was taking information concerning the initial lower leg fracture, a visitor rushed to the trailhead to report that a woman had fallen 140 feet. Rangers quickly organized a carryout via raft litter and evacuated the woman to the trailhead, arriving shortly after midnight. Her most serious injury was a shattered ankle. On the morning of July 18th, Grand Canyon National Park’s contract helicopter and short-haul team evacuated the man with the initial lower leg fracture out of the center of Imlay Canyon. The use of short haul prevented the need for a long, difficult technical rope rescue. Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/dig...idents&id=5780

[trackrunner]

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. . . Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/dig...idents&id=5780

Did they not have a permit period or did they have one extra over the permit limit? Or was it two groups in the same drainage which is also prohibited?

[Deathcricket]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

[Scott Card]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......

[CarpeyBiggs]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

[trackrunner]

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

well if you are going to poach or break permit rules/laws don't get caught AND don't cause a SAR operation. my best guess is the fine will be above $150.

because of the permit violation they could be charged the entire amount for the rescue including use of the helicopter. hopefully the injured has health insurance that covers air ambulance and doesn't require pre-approval because that will cost $$$.

even then most SAR try to avoid charging unless it was gross negligence.

[Deathcricket]

Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......

Best.... sentence..... eva!!!!!

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules. And don't tell me they are short staffed. If one ranger caught just two groups a day of 6 people 2x6x$150 = $1800/day x5x4=$36,000/month x12=$432,000/year. That could fund itself easily with just one ranger sitting on a trail. And like trackrunner said, maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

I'm seriously gonna poach Mystery one of these days though...

[Deathcricket]

Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules.

wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

[Deathcricket]

wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

Hehe, libertarian bordering on anarchist. There is zero conflict despising and perhaps bypassing stupid rules for me. "If we don't play ball the government is gonna get us in the future". Sounds like fear based decision making to me. But I digress, you are one of my heroes and I won't argue with you.

[trackrunner]

maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

Tom provides the information in this thread (quote below) up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.

The ticketing officer has quite a bit of discretion, depending on how much lip you give him. CAN fine you up to 500$, is what i have heard. I highly recommend not lying to the officer in any way. This is a MUCH greater offense and they take it quite seriously. It is also possible for the officer to ticket EVERY PERSON in your group. If you contest it and go before the magistrate in St George, my understanding is the magistrate can go as high as $ 1000.00, and 90 days in jail.

As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system.

Incidentally, (HI [Suri]), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.

'jes sayin'

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

i'm not saying i always agree with the rules, but anarchy isn't going to solve anything. trust me, i know how tedious the bureaucracy in these national parks can be, we've had a devil of a time trying to work with them on our latest project. i'm simply saying the ultimate path of least resistance is to demonstrate good behavior as a community. it's simple cause and effect.

you call it "fear based." i call it "reality based." that's probably a key difference between you and I...

[spinesnaper]

Tom provides the information hear up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.

Yeah, $150 ticket for something like this, I don't think so. Also the Park may charge the parties with full cost of the rescue. Were these folks too busy to set up express permits or show up before the wildnerness desk closed the evening before? This type of reckless behavior unfortunately reflects very poorly on the canyoneering community as a whole.

Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

This sounds like post traumatic stress disorder and there is typically nothing mild about it. Psychotherapy will be essential to deal with this situation. Falling 110 feet and fracturing your heal is terrible. Thankfully, she was not more injured. However, a shattered ankle or heel is a very difficult injury. It is probable that she will have permanent damage to her gait even with the best of surgery and all the appropriate rehabilitation. She will have a very long road to recovery and I am sure, not withstanding the poor judgement of her group, we all wish her a full, speedy, and miraculous recovery.

Take home lesson, make due haste in effecting the rescue of an injured party member but don't cut corners or relax your vigilance in getting that help, and please respect the Zion National Park permit system. You may not like it but don't create a situation where the rangers feel like they have to camp out in our canyons because we are all a bunch of goofballs that need to be protected from ourselves.

Ken

[canyonguru]

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

[ghawk]

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

I don't think you poached the canyon if you paid for your permit and simply left it in your car. You'd just have to get the ranger to go to the car or something. Or get the ticket canceled after or something... probably a bit of a pain but I don't see them being that unjust. maybe I'm wrong though. anybody ever have something like that happen?

[CarpeyBiggs]

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all...

a couple of the members of the party sent me notes tonight suggesting i had completely misrepresented them on this forum. they did in fact have a permit, but they exceeded the group size. they also adamantly denied ever violating any permits in the past, and explained that some of their friends may have poached in the past, but they were not a part of this trip.

so my apologies to those involved for suggesting that they may have violated permit rules previously. i made an unfair assumption, and an incorrect one at that.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah I got the same kinda message. I am kinda stuck here, trying to not pass any info from the group that would be considered sensitive. Let's face it this is pretty much the canyoneering equivalent of a bunch of gossiping housewives. But I think by the tone and formality I can pass this one along. "once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out" is a pretty dead giveaway. :) If I overstepped my bounds then I apologize to the group.

Dear Deathcricket:)

We actually had permits for 6 and another group of 2. Our group of six dropped to 5 when the one guy had to bring his GF at the last minute so he split from the group and picked up 2 permits of his own. I knew the canyon limit was 12.

I believe that some statements in this thread could border on being slanderous. For someone to state that I have "a history of poaching canyons" or anyone in the group. It's wrong, inaccurate, unnecessary and ON the internet for crap sake.

Because of this website I now have people contacting me to ask me which canyons I've poached and why I don't use permits. Come on.....we all know it's not fair for that sort of game to be played with someone's reputation even though you say I'm still anonymous. That's where this turns a bad trip into a bigger mess. I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

Good news is that once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out.

Thanks in advance for understanding.
- Person in group -

[Deathcricket]

Replying to my own post, lol. So they did have permits for everyone, but went over the 6 person limit by having a 7 person group (2+5). I think she might be under the impression the group limit is 12 in the canyon, which is an easy mistake since most of them are and the canyon limit is 12 like she said. So it's a BS charge IMO and probably a slap on the wrist since everyone did have permits, they just formed a "supergroup" of 7 people which is forbidden. But again, how do you prove they were "together" in the canyon?