Canyon Graffiti in Birch Hollow June 22, 2010

[Scott Card]

I am so confused...... So was it Hank that did the graffiti in Birch or Mike or Rich and are we following the rules/philosophy of Kant or Sherlock Holmes? And what exactly did he/she say? Helmets please. You have all lost it.

[rcwild]

Yeah ~ That does look like Hank! And the middle one looks like YOU! And holy mackerel - the one on the right, looks EXACTLY like Mike!

Now that you mention it, the guy on the right does look like Mike. BTW, is that canyon graffiti on his shirt? No way that could be me in the middle though. I never allow myself to be photographed or filmed without my Tron suit.

[restrac2000]

Social experiments are useless and only create more problems. These "complications" will only disappear on a societal/cultural level when divisions are removed on a personal level. Not to pick on Jaxx, but just for example:

Sure, but why is that? Obviously this is a "learned" awkwardness (aka conditioning), inherited from parents and peers. This awkwardness would probably be shared by the girl for the same reason. Is this situation necessary or beneficial?

On the tangential topic:

Support. The BSA, as I understand, is very much about mentoring. Why not mentor young men to be adult about such issues (just one of many), such an approach prepares them for healthy sibling interaction, marriage, the workplace and being assertive fathers. Seems very much in line with the organization's agenda.

If you ever work with young women, I spent most of my time working with female groups in my years guiding Wilderness Therapy, you realize how stigmatizing this issue can be; largely due to the "awkwardness" that is perpetuated in society. Men can handle the issue with the care needed.

Canyoneering. Tampons. Condoms. Sanitary napkins. Harnesses.

[Cirrus2000]

And the whole thread comes around to the MaxxiPad. Ta-da! Back onto canyoneering!

Excellent post, Phil. Excellent.

[Jaxx]

Jaxx

These "complications" are self-created and self-perpetuating by the divisions inherent in the culture. If these divisions were properly erased, a different culture would emerge in which these complications would mostly disappear.

What are some of the long-term benefits (to you, to others, etc.) of perpetuating these divisions? One short term benefit is obvious: self-protection from the complications of transition to a different cultural/relational experience (i.e. remaining in one's comfort zone).

Whether you agree with it or not it is part of the culture. I don't make the rules. I don't think it is appropriate for men and women to be mixed as scout leaders, to much chance for trouble.

Explaining to a girl how her body is changing is not a good thing for me to do. What if I went into more detail than the girl's parents appreciated and they had a problem with it, or worse filed charges. I have 5 girls. I will get my fair share of explaining that as a dad.

What do you think about leaving a gay leader with scouts alone? What if a scout accused the leader of something? Do you not see that as a problem? How do you think a different culture with no self created or self perpetuating divisions change this scenario? Same would go for women and scouts. Extra problems. I worry about enough as it is.

[Jaxx]

On the tangential topic:

Support. The BSA, as I understand, is very much about mentoring. Why not mentor young men to be adult about such issues (just one of many)

I don't think the BSA should be in charge of teaching young men about theirs or others bodies.

IMen can handle the issue with the care needed.

I agree than men could handle that. If they need to. But again I don't think it should be on the shoulders of a male scoutmaster to be dealing with it at ages 12-14.

[ratagonia]

What do you think about leaving a gay leader with scouts alone?

I thought current scout protocols insisted that scouts never be with exactly one scout leader, that two leaders always had to be present?

Also, you seem to be buying into the myth that gays are interested in male children. Adults who are interested in children are called pedophiles.

Tom

[restrac2000]

I don't think the BSA should be in charge of teaching young men about theirs or others bodies.

I agree than men could handle that. If they need to. But again I don't think it should be on the shoulders of a male scoutmaster to be dealing with it at ages 12-14.

Obviously all very hypothetical and it seems many of these organizations support these ideas in a de facto manner.

That said, a couple more thoughts as we think out loud.

Body education: Not advocating sex-ed or early anatomy lessons in the field, that is already handled by others (hopefully). That said, it is inevitable that such issues come up. Avoidance is one way of dealing with it, but never seems the best option. Kids are curious at the age.

The comment about boys age 12-14: Most girls are experiencing menarche at that age. No need to actively "teach" about that subject, most scout leaders aren't educated to handle the subject in an in depth manner. Nonetheless, there are ways to mentor boys at that age in an indirect way, say confronting the stereotypes that are verbalized at that age. I have found most boys will emulate the attitude of the men they associate with; boys attitudes have a huge impact of girls experiencing menstruation. We have mentioned "teachable moments" a few times on this thread, they are great tool to facilitate conversation. Doesn't have to be nitty gritty, just a moment to explore the concepts of empathy and respect. Teach them to be honest and curious with the people in their lives that are their primary educators (parents, teachers, doctors, whatever). Such conversations are best done in the moment, a lot of down time in canyons.

I can understand hesitance to such change/ideas, especially in today's litigious environment. I can especially see how this could be overwhelming for a volunteer based organization. That said, if you are truly concerned about some of the stated issues (unwanted sexual encounters with adults; false litigation), I would recommend reading demographic and scientific reports; they rarely match the anecdotes presented in mainstream society; they can be dealt with and prepared for in meaningful, easy ways (though this is obviously something the administration of the organization should be responsible for, not the field leaders).

Thanks for engaging in such a conversation when it can be so socially risky. We don't always have to agree on these forums but it is a pleasure to be open-minded enough to share ideas. And thanks for volunteering your time with kids in the outdoors; best of luck out there!

Phillip

[mhambi]

The Internet sleuths strike again...

Man, I'm bored.

[trackrunner]

i thought current scout protocols insisted that scouts never be with exactly one scout leader, that two leaders always had to be present?

Also, you seem to be buying into the myth that gays are interested in male children. Adults who are interested in children are called pedophiles.

Tom

qfe

[Jaxx]

I thought current scout protocols insisted that scouts never be with exactly one scout leader, that two leaders always had to be present?

Also, you seem to be buying into the myth that gays are interested in male children. Adults who are interested in children are called pedophiles.

Tom

There is not supposed to be any one on one alone time. If there are two scouts and one leader you are ok.

I didn't mean to imply that just because someone is gay that means they like boys. I mean if there was an accusation by a teenager about his scoutmaster (this could happen if straight to) who do you think people would side with. It seems like society would point the finger pretty quickly.

I want to make sure I am not coming off as saying gay guys couldn't make great leaders. But obviously there are extra issues that come up. I hope I haven't offended anyone.

[Jaxx]

qfe

What part are you emphasizing? All of it? Part of it? Or did you just want to be part of the cool crowd?

[scubabryan]

There is not supposed to be any one on one alone time. If there are two scouts and one leader you are ok.

When I was called as a Scout Master, I had to go through the Youth Protection training which states:

Barriers to Abuse Within Scouting
The BSA has adopted the following policies to provide additional security for our members. These policies are primarily for the protection of our youth members; however, they also serve to protect our adult leaders from false accusations of abuse.

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

At least in our Stake here in Las Vegas, two deep leadership is a requirement and can not have one adult with two boys. I would think that it's the same though out the BSA but I can be wrong. It's for the protection of our scouts as well as us in leadership positions.

[trackrunner]

There is not supposed to be any one on one alone time. If there are two scouts and one leader you are ok.

did not know. interesting. Since I'm no longer an active leader, I was unaware the BSA did away from it's "Two-deep leadership" rule and policy. I thought it was great policy and the organization should keep it. Ironically I fought with my sponsoring org over this issue. I needed another leader to comply with BSA policy, sponsor wouldn't provide one or approve my recomendation.

for those interested in the Two-Deep Leadership policy. It can be found on page 5 here and here

What part are you emphasizing? All of it? Part of it?

since I quoted all of it, it would be all of it. two great points.

Or did you just want to be part of the cool crowd?

Not sure what you mean by this. Hard to understand the intent of internet font, much like the lack of sarcasm font. Sounds like a personal jab. If so, not sure what I wrote or did. If so you have my sincere apology because whatever I did, I never intended it to be personal or insulting, and must have done something wrong for it to be interpreted as such. Again sincere apology if so.




[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]I

[Jaxx]

When I was called as a Scout Master, I had to go through the Youth Protection training which states:

Barriers to Abuse Within Scouting
The BSA has adopted the following policies to provide additional security for our members. These policies are primarily for the protection of our youth members; however, they also serve to protect our adult leaders from false accusations of abuse.

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

At least in our Stake here in Las Vegas, two deep leadership is a requirement and can not have one adult with two boys. I would think that it's the same though out the BSA but I can be wrong. It's for the protection of our scouts as well as us in leadership positions.

did not know. interesting. Since I'm no longer an active leader, I was unaware the BSA did away from it's "Two-deep leadership" rule and policy. I thought it was great policy and the organization should keep it. Ironically I fought with my sponsoring org over this issue. I needed another leader to comply with BSA policy, sponsor wouldn't provide one or approve my recomendation.

for those interested in the Two-Deep Leadership policy. It can be found on page 5 here and here

They still have 2 deep leadership (Youth Protection) and we follow it strictly. But there are times a leader could find himself alone without another leader. While we were on our last trip floating the Green River we had to take 3 of our 4 leaders and take 2 cars to the end and have one car bring back the 3 leaders. One leader was left with the boys. We actually called the local scout office and they said that was ok. When I offer to take boys home after an activity I make sure the 2 live close together because I have to drop both of them off at the same time so I am not left with 1 boy in my car. Those kinds of things come up all the time.

Not sure what you mean by this. Hard to understand the intent of internet font, much like the lack of sarcasm font. Sounds like a personal jab. If so, not sure what I wrote or did. If so you have my sincere apology because whatever I did, I never intended it to be personal or insulting, and must have done something wrong for it to be interpreted as such. Again sincere apology if so.

I didn't mean it as a personal jab. Just a third reason to post, just being goofy. I guess I missed the mark on that one.

[QUOTE=trackrunner][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]I

[trackrunner]

They still have 2 deep leadership (Youth Protection) and we follow it strictly. But there are times a leader could find himself alone without another leader. While we were on our last trip floating the Green River we had to take 3 of our 4 leaders and take 2 cars to the end and have one car bring back the 3 leaders. One leader was left with the boys. We actually called the local scout office and they said that was ok. When I offer to take boys home after an activity I make sure the 2 live close together because I have to drop both of them off at the same time so I am not left with 1 boy in my car. Those kinds of things come up all the time.

understood. how did the trip go? guess we should talk about that in the float thread you started in the paddaling section.

I didn't mean it as a personal jab. Just a third reason to post, just being goofy. I guess I missed the mark on that one.

cool understood both misunderstood earlier post.

[peterb]

Let me preface this by stating that the only reason I saw this thread is because bogley sent an
e-mail of "Featuread Trip Reports" which I asked to be done since I lurk and enjoy much of what
read here. I only mention this because bogley (whoever they are) felt the need to include this
post to include in the regular email update that many of us receive. It reallly isn't a 'trip report' is
it. Fanning the flames bogley?

I just wanted to respond to Jeff.
I was a scout in the desert of Arizona and I'll state right up front that I have no problem with the
existence of a male, heterosexual young men's organization. Why not? We have every other kind
of group and this is still the 'land of the free' right?

Since I'm a lurker, I must have missed many of the posts that have you so inflamed. In the context
of this thread however your injection of the LDS into the conversation is inflamatory and reeks of baiting.
It seems a little paranoid as well.

I know, as a scout, we weren't perfect angels, but our scoutmasters did the best they could. Probably some
were even LDS since they were well established in my hometown although the subject of what particular religious
affiliations we had was rarely a topic of conversation. My friends were LDS, Roman Catholic and the odd protestant.
Since I was raised in the atheist tradition, I was glad I rarely had to explain my (non)beliefs to my peeps.

I'd suggest a deep breath slowly exhaled and a slow count to ten Jeff.

[oldno7]

I went through Birch a couple weeks ago, ran into another group that followed us through. At the bottom of the last rappel I could see the faint markings that had been circled several times with a rock(apparently) I rubbed the area with a little wet sand and it seemed to disappear. May come back when the sand was dry. This did not look like a "carving" to me, more like using a small rock as you would a piece of chalk. If there was more, the ones who patched before me did a great job. I would call this a relatively non-issue at this point.(the marks themselves)

[ScoutColorado]

Man, I'm bored.

good job on the poster!

[Jaxx]

I went through Birch a couple weeks ago, ran into another group that followed us through. At the bottom of the last rappel I could see the faint markings that had been circled several times with a rock(apparently) I rubbed the area with a little wet sand and it seemed to disappear. May come back when the sand was dry. This did not look like a "carving" to me, more like using a small rock as you would a piece of chalk. If there was more, the ones who patched before me did a great job. I would call this a relatively non-issue at this point.(the marks themselves)

Good to hear it is cleaned up. I love Birch!