Larry Canyon Debrief Part I: Trip Choice and Preparation

[trackrunner]

well, there is plenty of discussion right now on the yahoo groups about that very issue.

the thing is, every situation is unique. i think their pack size was not a big issue in this canyon. sometimes you want a super small pack. sometimes you don't. in this case, i think it's moot. their pack preparations seemed pretty commendable to me.

ultimately though, i think everyone always wants the smallest safest pack they can carry. that differs between people.

Agree that it cannot be the same for different situation. It comes down to appropriate size to the situation factors.

I think the Black Hole incident is appropriate about which gear is needed (wetsuit thickness, extra fleece, bag flotation, food, emergency items, etc) which would have lead to a larger pack size (which was nothing). But would 45-50 lbs or more pack weight been best in the Black Hole? IMHO, no. I think you can accomplish your needs with gear that doesn

[ratagonia]

Mr Ralston could have used a jackhammer, but would canyoneers packing jackhammers be practical.

You wanna be safe for all situations??? or what!

T

[ratagonia]

Fiasco? no injuries, one brief period of hypothermia, dealt with. What Fiasco you talking about, dude?

Why, the freeze fest Black Hole experience, of course.

Since you're being so critical of the Larry Canyon folks, it might help them to understand your point of view when it comes to canyons. Allow me to cross post what you had to say about the FF "fiasco" over on the canyons group.

I'm sure it'll help folks understand that this stuff is for adults.

(Tom "every man for himself" Jones pitches a nice fat one right down the middle...)

-Brian in SLC

Tom's Black Hole

From the yahoo egroup "canyons"...

Re: Black Hole thoughts

An UNEXPECTED long, cold swim, with a hard start that for most people ended up
splashing their face.

But Brian, you (conveniently) left out the most important part (in addition to several pages of context which could also be considered important):

>
> reconsideration leads me to qualify the "adult" 'claim':
>
> I meant it more as an OBSERVATION of how things work in a large, non-organized group in difficult conditions; and that future participants should be aware of this, and be prepared physically and intellectually to take care of themselves.
>
> This SIZE of group is a bad size for group-decision-making, unless it has a well-defined leadership structure. Nate and Jason were also the least-connected members of the group, and thus the ones who needed to be MOST proactive in making sure their kit was up to snuff. A lot of these difficulties flow from their last-minute decision to join the team. Plenty of extra gear was available to them, even at the parking lot, if they had asked. They did not have a good understanding of what they needed, and thus thought they would muddle-through in some way with the stuff they had. Guess they did, and now know what they will need next year.
>
> Tom

[jman]

First, I think this is great that such a dialogue (aside from the proper technicalities or errors of the trip) is happening! First, you have the Larry Canyon SAR incident, then you have the Freezefest Hypothermia incident.

On one hand, and in this thread, Tom mentions that a smaller pack is best and with that "welcome to the world of canyoneering". Then, the incident with hypothermia (a situation more severe than I think most realize) and yes there were some people who were fully prepared (extra hoodie for nate, sharing of thermos, and much more). Yet, that same argument of a "smaller pack is best" did not apply in this situation at all. Not even in the slightest.

Level-headed Carpey said it best, and allow me for paraphrasing, "each canyon is different and you pack differently." Exactly! Each canyon is always different and have to prepare differently, especially for Freezefest. I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky. NO! There is no need to cancel it because one incident of hypothermia.... It can be relatively safe (canyoneering has an inherent risk to it, so it's not a "Perfect safety") if they right precautions are in place, gear is correct, and attitudes/egos are in check!

anywho,
I quote from Hank Moon, who posted on canyons who said this:

"The "adult activity" angle: A bit on the weak side, Tom. Adults are not
> only responsible for themselves, but for others."

That's why I believe in my humble opinion, that there should be a canyon leader (even if the group is all extremely confident and have perfect skills) there should be one who will coordinate all the planning, AND Communication.

Further quoting Steve/RAM in a canyons post:

"The bad news....So how does someone land in the Hole without a pack, without enough neoprene, without gloves, without a hat under his helmet, without food, without having eating a ton before going? Bad leadership, that's how. And while many will say the usual about personal responsibility on Nate's part and some truth lies there, the fact is he was sucker punched by lack of support and information. In my next post I will explain how I managed to fail to insure that these things didn't get taken care of, but want it clear. I don't want it seen as excuse making. The blames lays squarely with me and if I may, my partner in such things, Tom too."

True, like Steve said, it is Nate's fault for not bringing the proper gear. But, if you are leading an expedition, to anywhere (Mt. Everest, Scuba-Diving, ATVing, roadtrips, being a parent, whatever), there is a leader who will double-check every thing, to make sure everyone is prepared and things are "according to plan" right? That's why RAM is taking responsiblity, I believe. Granted, there are people who don't plan anything and haphazardly live their adventure and make it. But they are the ones asking for trouble. One day or another an accident will happen to em, due to their non-planning. NOTE: I'm not pulling things out of context, because in the end - the purpose of canyoneering - is successfully and safely navigating a canyon, while of course having lots of fun. right?

Anywho, all of these incidents are hopefully making all of us fellow canyoneers - a little more responsible, a better leader, and a better planner.

I don't mean to point my fingers at anyone - except perhaps their attitudes, but I've been there where I have underplanned and a incident happens and we successfully make it out of there, without anyone else knowing the better. I know I have learned more things on becoming a better leader and making sure I'm prepared.

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah I did...but you can bet I'll be sampling from that beauty in the future...ha ha. Good fodder!

Its titallating stuff to be sure.

Interesting comparison between your "non fiasco" and the Larry Canyon accident.

Makes me think about risk. And tolerance for risk.

I mean, really, which group had a greater margin of safety?

The saavy folks in all this?

As they say, "oh yeah, the women are smarter."

A few thoughts. Folks have different approaches to stuff. Some more risk averse than others. Some more talented, physically, some more crafty, etc. Both situations kind of highlight different approaches and margins of safety and risk.

Tom comes at this canyoning thing from climbing. He and his ilk push (promote, what have you) a certain style, ethics, and in some circles this carries weight. Folks who respect and maybe admire this style might seek to emulate it. This activity attacts all kinds of folks. Some with huge talent, physically, others with talent in being crafty, etc. And in those groups lies very different tolerances for risk and margins of safety.

When you're the Pied Piper, you play the tune, but, you don't get to choose who follows.

So you'll get folks who carry big packs, large medical kits, extra rope, spare ascenders and descenders. Easy to be critical of their heavy packs. On the other hand, you'll get folks who won't even bring a pack. Pretty easy to be critical of that too.

Celebrate diversity, and, maybe be more tolerant of others?

Big tent. Some times even the uncool kids want a little shade under the big top.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky.

they should fill it up with concrete!!! too dangerous, people can't think rational!!!



To the family I hope my comments don't come off as jerk. Genuinely interested in the questions I posted. Your story will already add a few extra items (depending on the situation) to my gear, and marginally a few extra in weight. Your answers may do the same or convince me I may be overlooking something importat. Thank you. I'm done for a while. Will now try to watch from a distance as my questions are discussed & answered.

Best luck in your recovery and good luck with your future outdoor adventures in the coming year. hope to see you at the fests

[jman]

I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky.

they should fill it up with concrete!!! too dangerous, people can't think rational!!!

Instead of concrete, I prefer TNT and blowing up the canyon just like what they do to hot springs...haha

well, "they" refers to the wife of a friend who went to FF and did the hole along with everyone else that day and later told his wife about the hypothermic Nate. They invited me to dinner last week and my friend and I talked for a LONG time about it over dinner. Then the wife said - to "not do it in the winter. It's just begging for trouble. Why not just cancel it and do it in the spring?" Then I brought up the whole Nutty Putty cave incident and tried to help her understand of the "riskyness" of the world. And how driving is more dangerous than most activities and we should just cancel that. I told her it all comes down to preparation, knowledge of the sport & climbing skills, leadership, attitude, and communication...

anyways..........

[Scott P]

You have done the Black Hole with us - did you think it was that whacko, for an experienced team?

Swimming through an ice and water filled slot canyon in January? Why would anyone consider something like that to be whacko?

Yes and no. The thing about the Black Hole is that technical experience has no bearing on whether one has a high tolerance to cold water, even if one is properly equipped. When you say an

[CarpeyBiggs]

well, "they" refers to the wife of a friend who went to FF and did the hole along with everyone else that day and later told his wife about the hypothermic Nate. They invited me to dinner last week and my friend and I talked for a LONG time about it over dinner.

well, WHO is the mystery black hole attendee? someone married? that eliminates pretty much everyone i know .

my curiosity is piqued...

[ratagonia]

[quote=Scott P]

130 feet of webbing, 3 over-the-shoulder slings, 5 prusiks, 1 webbing ladder (etrier or aider) with sentimental value, 1 Valdotain (French Braid thing), 30 feet of 6mm rope, 100+ feet of emergency 7mm rope.

This sounds like you are going on a major exploration, expecting 10-15 raps. You actually had enough stuff to fix ropes in the entire canyon

Sometimes, raps can require a lot of webbing. You knew to bring much less webbing because you have done the canyon, but let

[Chungy22]

Of course I accept you appology! I am very new at this expecially compared to you Ratagonia, but I just don't like being treated like an incompentant fool that doesn't know what he is doing. Granted I am not about to admit that I am an expert or anywhere near it. In fact I would love to go through canyons with some of you and learn how you pack and how it affects you in the canyons. I would love to learn new ways to get through a canyon with a lighter pack. Honestly my pack was about 20-25 lbs....... not too bad and I am glad that Tntrebel didn't take the noraml 40-50 lb pack that he normally does because I ended up carrying about 60% of his backpack so I would have had about a 50-60 lb pack for the hike out! Not good!!! I will agree with you that taking the minimum weight is the best, but I guess everyone just has to judge for themselves on what is the minimum weight. For some it might be a little heavier than others, but I think being confortable and sure that you have enough is worth a few extra pounds, but that is just me. That is exactly why I want to go with some of you to learn what kind of pack you are confortable with and I am sure to learn a ton more than that! I actually appreciate criticism (Just not when I am considered a complete idiot for it, when I really am just kind of an idiot for it!!) ;) So thanks again Tom for your advice! Know that I will take it into consideration and probably go a little lighter next time and make sure I have what I need in there.

[Chungy22]

As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. It would have been a really easy canyon for us to get through if Tntrebel hadn't of made a mistake and slipped! There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do....... Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level. Thank you again for the advice though. It will make me research the canyons that I would like to do a little more and make sure that I have a first hand account of what to expect so that I won't be surprised by anything.

[Chungy22]

The POINT of this conversation, Chungy, is for you to re-evaluate your firmly held beliefs and find ones that will work better, should you choose to continue in the sport.

I am course going to continue in the sport! I love it! My wife is a little wary about it now, but I think she also going to join us on our next expedition. I think we will find a pretty easy canyon for her to do, but yes of course I am going to continue. Besides that would waste a lot of money if I quit now and was not able to use all the new stuff that I have.

[Scott P]

I'm having trouble following your arithmetic, Scott. 130 + 18 + 30 + 100 does not equal 148.

That was for the sling/webbing (unless I missed something?). Are you counting the rope as the extra 100?

I don't pay much attention to Shane's gear recommendations because he is not usually specific to the canyon - he has a general "complete technical gear list" that ends up on most of his beta sheets.

Maybe so, but my point wasn't how much was actually needed in the canyon, but how much the party was told they should take. Unless I'm missing something, they didn't take that much more than was recommended.

5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier?

A prusik system was on the recommended gear list, though they could have made it smaller or used what they already had to make one.

I carry a backup rope or "rescue rope" in certain circumstances. But not in narrow, squeezy canyons with lots of downclimbing and not many rappels.

Yes, but you are more experienced. There is no disagreement about that. No one would disagree that mistakes were made, but you have to look at it from the point of view of the people involved and why they might have taken more gear than you know in is needed for the canyon. To me, looking from a point of view of foresight vs. hindsight and what was recommended, it really doesn't seem that illogical that someone with more limited experience might end up taking too much. It was a mistake, but not a totally irrational one given their experience and information. I agree that they took too much gear and I assume they do too. I don't disagree that it may have contributed to the accident and I agree that they should have taken less. I was just looking more for a "why?" and trying to see it from their point of view rather than trying to say that mistakes were not made.

Anyway, the first time I did Larry, not having any beta (we did the canyon before you did), we took a lot of extra gear through Larry as well and I agree; it sucked getting the packs through all that. I can see where a big pack was a liability. I also agree with taking much less gear through the canyon that they ended up taking.

I agree with you that in winter it wasn't a great choice for the group.

[Scott P]

As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do. Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level.

Although I can see how someone could easily make that mistake in foresight, I think I would have to agree that it really wasn't a good choice. IMHO you seem to be blowing off some of the dangers and it could have been worse. It is also true that if no one got hurt, it could have been completely uneventful.

Don't take this the wrong way, but be careful about relying to much on physical strength and physical ability to get you through canyons. There is more to these canyons than being able to downclimb or slide down a rope. Reading your enthusiastic comments, I see myself 12-15 years ago and in hindsight I was quite lucky to never have an accident. Treat each canyon as a learning experience.

I guess that it all I have to say on the topic. I'm headed out to do some canyons.

[Iceaxe]

I don't pay much attention to Shane's gear recommendations because he is not usually specific to the canyon - he has a general "complete technical gear list" that ends up on most of his beta sheets.

Maybe you should start paying more attention.... because the gear recommendation's listed in the actual route description are canyon specific. I tell you exactly how much rope you will need, how much webbing, how many slings, if and what type of wetsuit you will need, what size pack you should bring, yada, yada..... if any specialized gear (cheater stick, throw bag, or cam) is required it is also listed.... Yes, I have a general gear page but the gear listed in the route description is canyon specific.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Maybe you should start paying more attention....

really shane? like this one for chambers?

Chambers requires complete technical gear. There are no mandatory rappels in this canyon but a 30-foot rope for belays, handlines and pack lowering is highly advised. Additional gear should consist of a mae west bunny strap, several shoulder length slings, a couple double length slings, 50 feet of webbing, several rapid links, and a prusik system. As small of pack as possible is highly advised. In normal conditions this canyon will require minor waist to chest deep wading. Wetsuits are not required in normal warm weather conditions.

hmm... doesn't sound very canyon specific to me. 50 feet of webbing? Several rapid links? Rope? Complete technical gear? Carrying that stuff through the upper section of chambers would be a nightmare.

I guess we can excuse you though, because you've never actually been in Chambers, so it's hard to write canyon specific details for that one.

[Iceaxe]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems.

So Dan... any more of your usual cheap ass shots you want to take at me today?

[ratagonia]

Of course I accept you appology! I am very new at this expecially compared to you Ratagonia, but I just don't like being treated like an incompentant fool that doesn't know what he is doing. Granted I am not about to admit that I am an expert or anywhere near it. In fact I would love to go through canyons with some of you and learn how you pack and how it affects you in the canyons. I would love to learn new ways to get through a canyon with a lighter pack. Honestly my pack was about 20-25 lbs....... not too bad and I am glad that Tntrebel didn't take the noraml 40-50 lb pack that he normally does because I ended up carrying about 60% of his backpack so I would have had about a 50-60 lb pack for the hike out! Not good!!! I will agree with you that taking the minimum weight is the best, but I guess everyone just has to judge for themselves on what is the minimum weight. For some it might be a little heavier than others, but I think being confortable and sure that you have enough is worth a few extra pounds, but that is just me. That is exactly why I want to go with some of you to learn what kind of pack you are confortable with and I am sure to learn a ton more than that! I actually appreciate criticism (Just not when I am considered a complete idiot for it, when I really am just kind of an idiot for it!!) ;) So thanks again Tom for your advice! Know that I will take it into consideration and probably go a little lighter next time and make sure I have what I need in there.

Thank you for being gracious.

Tom

As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. It would have been a really easy canyon for us to get through if Tntrebel hadn't of made a mistake and slipped! There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do....... Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level. Thank you again for the advice though. It will make me research the canyons that I would like to do a little more and make sure that I have a first hand account of what to expect so that I won't be surprised by anything.

I see that...

But, how many and how long the rappels are is a poor way of analyzing how 'hard' the canyon is. For the prior canyons on TNT's resume, they are perhaps an accurate assessment of the canyon's difficulty - which is what makes them half-day, beginner canyons.

Larry was a step up from that, maybe not a BIG step up, but at least a short step up. Longer (a full-day canyon), more remote, more downclimbing, with the tiring slanty-corridor, and a sometimes difficult to find exit. Larry is a wonderful canyon. But... (and I repeat myself): winter cold, winter short hours, inexperienced partner, small team. Yes, usually we get away with these sorts of things and it is great fun. In this case you DID get away with it with only almost-minor injuries (thanks be to wearing a helmet), and injuries to pride.

Tom Moses

I'm having trouble following your arithmetic, Scott. 130 + 18 + 30 + 100 does not equal 148.

That was for the sling/webbing (unless I missed something?). Are you counting the rope as the extra 100?

This is in addition to a 200' rope remember. Yes, I am counting the 7mm 100+ foot "backup rope" as part of the sling material.

278 is much greater than 75.

Tom

EDIT: Carpey combined some of Tom's post into this one. Carpey doesn't know how to split topics properly, apparently, so he is trying to put the pieces back together. Flame on!

[ratagonia]

What are the extra items for: 5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier? 12 carabiners - does that include Chungy's, or did he also bring a pound-a-biners?

Tom

(bump)