Results 41 to 60 of 75
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06-09-2009, 08:09 PM #41
I guess there will always be the division.
The same could be said about Aron Ralston, although he didn't die. While most who read his story hail him as a "brave hero", there are the few who call him an idiot for going alone.
Since he's still alive, I'll call him an idiot.
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06-09-2009 08:09 PM # ADS
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06-09-2009, 08:21 PM #42Originally Posted by SombeechPlease buy my book - "Paiute ATV Trail Guide" at www.atvutah.com - I need gas money!!!!
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06-09-2009, 09:21 PM #43
Re: Disasters are a part of Zion National Park's history
Originally Posted by Bo_Beck
Perhaps this is a disastrous thread, where feelings are hurt and the hurt expressed, disastrously.
Here's the distinction I make: When the people who die were not responsible for the deaths (and more than a few people), then that is a disaster. 9/11, The Iraq War, Katrina, The Titanic - lots of people kilt, and the people kilt, not their fault.
In both the above cases (hiking up the Narrows to take pictures of the flash flood; unprepared idiots heading down Kolob with boyscouts in tow, in unfavorable conditions, and getting THEMSELVES killed), those conditions are not met. Personal disasters for their families? No doubt. But HARDLY a big enough event to be labeled a "disaster" in the general sense of the word.
Originally Posted by Wiktionary
(Have I dug myself a deep enough hole, yet?)
Tom
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesbadwobot liked this post
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06-09-2009, 09:31 PM #44Originally Posted by DiscGo
(And then I'll make fun of you on Bogley? No, that's just a side benefit).
These guys did really stupid things, and they died. Y'alls wanna sweep it under the rug?, ignore it? fine. Call the guy a saint because he had a family and did good things in the community? I'm not disagreeing that the guys might have been wonderful people. But it did not protect them from basic physics. In Canyoneering, if you do stupid things, you will die. Might get away with it one, two, ten, a hundred times, but you're rolling the dice. And eventually, you'll get snake eyes.
Tom
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesbadwobot liked this post
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06-09-2009, 09:36 PM #45Y'alls wanna sweep it under the rug?, ignore it?Please buy my book - "Paiute ATV Trail Guide" at www.atvutah.com - I need gas money!!!!
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06-09-2009, 09:36 PM #46Originally Posted by Sombeech
Killing yourself doesn't make you a dipshit, it's taking someone with you that does.
Tom
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06-09-2009, 09:49 PM #47Originally Posted by RedMan
And YES, these are statements of morality, and yes, your morality may be different.
If the soloist on the Chukwalla wall falls off, OK, that's sad, and he was an idiot for soloing above his competence. It is a tragedy for his family. If he falls off and lands on someone else and kills them too - then he's a dipshit.
Tom (Moral clarity, but at what cost...)
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06-09-2009, 10:09 PM #48your morality may be different.Please buy my book - "Paiute ATV Trail Guide" at www.atvutah.com - I need gas money!!!!
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06-10-2009, 12:07 AM #49
I too believe that I understand what Tom is trying to say, although bluntly, cold and perhaps over the top rhetorically. But sometimes facts are that way. I get angry when people put others in danger. As an example, when on the road nothing makes me more angry than when I am driving and someone does something accidently yet stupid that puts me and my family in danger of losing our lives. I saw a girl texting, eating and applying makeup all at the same time a few months ago. A tragedy if she dies. But I would be very angry if she also took some innocent person out in the process. Her actions would have been stupid, idiotic and irresponsible. She may be a fine person but that doesn't change facts. I deal with pain and hurt every day with my clients who have been hurt by nice people who make dumb mistakes. I have represented the families of victims of a wrongful (negligently caused) death. It is hard. It is ugly. And it hurts.
Back to the subject at hand, I appreciate the blunt reminders. It makes me think twice and hopefully makes me a better canyon leader of young men. These reminders make me reevaluate my plans, take a second look at my preparations, reevaluate the risks in the canyons, etc. I personally think the Kolob thing could be called a disaster, a disaster in judgment, leadership and training. I feel for the families, I feel for the scouts, I ache for their memories, particularly for the young man who watched his dad die. Words cannot describe how I might feel or how badly I feel for this boy, now man. It is truly horrible what happened in Kolob but it doesn't change the disastrous facts. The Kolob disaster seems to be much more than the generic "human error". Am I name calling? No, but these leaders made stupid choices and got people killed. Those are facts and they may hurt to hear or say but facts are facts. OK flame away. My helmet is on. I am sure I will regret entering this spitting match.Life is Good
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06-10-2009, 07:51 AM #50Originally Posted by Sombeech
I'm going to have to analyze this new bit of information. Doesn't make sense (to me) but I'm getting the feeling that's the heart of the matter.Your safety is not my responsibility.
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06-10-2009, 08:27 AM #51Originally Posted by Scott CardSome people "go" through life and other people "grow" through life. -Robert Holden
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06-10-2009, 08:41 AM #52
The guy obviously made bad decisions putting others at risk.
I wonder if there was shock/hypothermia affecting his thought process. Who would go into a raging pothole to retrieve a backpack after they had just watched a friend die from that same scenario? Not to make excuses but it seems like you would have an altered state of mind after watching someone die and then having to continue in the canyon. Sad and tragic for sure. I hope I am never in that situation.The man thong is wrong.
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06-10-2009, 09:07 AM #53Originally Posted by Jaxx
Which is why the awfulness of this situation. Yes, they had hiked down to it twice before and NOT done it. The leader had been through the canyon before. So, he should have known. Everyone there would have known that going in was a very bad idea. But they went anyway.
T
*correction 8/26/2016 - they did not hike down to it twice before, they postponed the trip because water was too high in The Narrows for them to get the Narrows permit for their hike out. The only person who had been through the canyon before was Fleischer, and exactly once. So he was the ONLY person in a position to know what was ahead.
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06-10-2009, 09:56 AM #54
I don't disagree that they should have never been in there.
I was pointing out that possibly he was in a state of shock when the decision to go into the water to get his backpack out after all that lead up to that point. Mabey the hypothermia/shock wasn't an issue and he was just a horrible decision maker all around?The man thong is wrong.
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06-10-2009, 10:32 AM #55Originally Posted by Scott Card
I am provocateur...
T
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06-10-2009, 10:38 AM #56Originally Posted by nat
Your point about offending the families of the victim is well put though. I just can't fathom the "majority" of people on this forum have made similar mistakes. I've done some stuff that others would consider extremely stupid. My first post in this forum 2 years ago was of me doing some "stunt rappelling" and I was bitched out left an right about it. So I would consider myself a risk taker for sure compared to a lot of people here. But I never would look into a whirlpool and think I could swim it. If he had jumped in and the current was "deceptively strong" and overpowered him? Ok he gets a pass. I've swam in the ocean and rip currents are amazing and very sneaky. But he tossed his pack in and it sucked so hard he couldn't pull it out! I suspect even others in the group probably helped him try to pull it out. There is no way he jumped in that pool to retrieve the pack and didn't know how strong the current was.Your safety is not my responsibility.
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06-10-2009, 11:01 AM #57Originally Posted by Deathcricket
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06-10-2009, 11:11 AM #58
[quote=James_B_Wads2000]
Again amazing insight for someone who wasnYour safety is not my responsibility.
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06-10-2009, 11:28 AM #59Originally Posted by Sombeech
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06-10-2009, 11:35 AM #60Originally Posted by Deathcricket
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