View Poll Results: Is Global Warming real?
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Thread: Global Warming
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06-07-2006, 08:21 AM #1
Global Warming
We've been hearing this term for a while. Is it caused by too much CO2? Is it real? Is it fake?
What are the statistics? If the Icecaps melt, does the ocean necessarily rise?
Does global warming exist when our wasatch front still has snow on the peaks after the first week of June?
Here's the place to hash out the details on why, or why not you believe GW exists.
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06-07-2006 08:21 AM # ADS
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06-07-2006, 08:32 AM #2
There's no doubt that global temperatures have gotten warmer since the ice age (duh), but I don't think anybody can reliably prove that humans are responsible for it. Hell, there was a time when the earth didn't even have polar ice caps, and there were no humans around to be blamed. It's obvious that climate changes are always occurring on this planet, so who cares if global temperatures go up or down by a few degrees? In the grand scheme of things, none of it matters.
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06-07-2006, 09:27 AM #3
As i understand it there are two types of warming.
(1) Clearly we are exiting the ice age and there has been a natural trend of warming for 10,000 years. Scientists are NOT suggesting that THIS is our fault.
(2) There is a TREND which shows a marked increase in average tempurature RISE over the past 100 years, especially the last 50. What this is demonstrating is that there is an ACCELERATION of the warming. Furthermore that this acceleration in average temp. is correlated with a related increase in the amount of carbon dioxide released during that period. it is THIS which scientists believe WE are responsible for.
it's actually dramatically impressive the amount of CO2 we can put into the atmostphere. most folks wouldn't really believe it, then again, it's hard for humans to really grasp the scope of anything large scale.
what bothers me most is that WE as humans only choose to deal with issues when they are a crisis. Rather than entertain the possibility that we are responsible and try to change it, we'd rather deny it and wait until it's a much more difficult problem.
Now i totally disagree with Udink. Who cares about a couple of degrees? Sheesh. What do you know about a couple of degrees. You and I have no concept of the implications of a couple of degrees. Now i will say that no one knows precisely what the implications are, but it's short-sighted to suggest that a couple of degrees means NOTHING, it's also very short-sighted to expect that it'll only be a couple of degrees. Plus you cannot base what happens over the course of a few years on what can happen in many years from the same result. The surface of the earth and it's atmosphere form a very complex system, for %&$#'s sake we cannot even predict the weather more than 3 days out. Tinkering with our atmosphere *potentially* can lead to dramatic consequences. I don't think this should be taken so lightly.
It's better to err on the side of caution in this case, i would think.
"Grand scheme of things", this arguement is a way to cop out of responsibility and moreover, it's absurdly in alignment with, "well, eventually, i'll be dead, so who cares about what i do in life and the value of my decisions."
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06-07-2006, 09:33 AM #4
I certainly believe in global warming, in the fact that the globe is warming. But global waming is such a loosely used term. Technically the Earth is warming but there is no proof whatsoever that humans are the cause. It has been proven that throughout mankind, and before that, the earth's temperature has abruptly changed, sometimes hotter, sometimes colder. I'm not saying that humans don't need to clean up their act, but I can't stand it when humans, especially Americans, get blamed for everything "bad" that happens on this planet. I can't wait until we start getting blamed for earthquakes and volcanos. I work with a guy that really believes the government caused Katrina. He also believes the gov. blew up the World Trade Center. But that's a whole other topic.
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06-07-2006, 09:40 AM #5
I step outside yesterday, and start sweating immediately because of the heat this early in June. Even May had record high temps.
And then I still see snow on Mt Ogden approaching mid-June. Maybe I'll start a theory called "valley warming".
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06-07-2006, 09:41 AM #6Originally Posted by Udink
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06-07-2006, 09:51 AM #7Originally Posted by Sombeech
FYI alta measured 700" by the end of April last year, 150" above average, This year was very high too. Before last year, 1997 was the last comparable year. So the snow being around isn't a good indicator. it's the rate of melting of the snow of comparable years that, in the crudest of senses, would be marginally appropriate.
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06-07-2006, 09:55 AM #8Originally Posted by stefan
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06-07-2006, 10:13 AM #9Originally Posted by Sombeech
I guess my point is that none of this is really cut-and-dry. For example 1997-1998 was a HUGE snow year (alta 650-700+), yet January was the 3rd warmest on record. You need to look at averages over time in many different locations, i think, to get a real sense of "warming."
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06-07-2006, 10:20 AM #10Originally Posted by stefan
Originally Posted by stefan
Originally Posted by James_B_Wads2000
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06-07-2006, 11:36 AM #11Originally Posted by Udink
Originally Posted by Udink
What is pragmatic is trying to analyze the effects our actions take, to evaluate the ramifications not on a purely economical basis, and try make more informed decision and changes to improve the manner in which we operate. We have a long time before we go extinct.
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06-15-2006, 02:52 PM #12
June 15th 2006
Mt Ogden
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06-15-2006, 09:20 PM #13
I have absolute undeniable irrefutable photographic proof of Global Warming.
Have fun, ride safe, keepem wheels down, and see you at the Jamborees,
Buy my book my poor Quad needs gas money
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06-15-2006, 09:41 PM #14Originally Posted by ATVUtah
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06-16-2006, 08:16 AM #15
I'm with Udink --- bring on the warming!!! It's not hot enough!!
My supervisor went for a drive up on the La Sals a week ago. He drives a HUGE Ford F350, with an impressive lift kit. He said he got stuck in a really deep snow drift, and had to walk back for help to pull him out. Lots of snow still up there.
Its a fact that the earth is warming, but whether or not we are responsible remains to be seen. Like was mentioned above, this earth goes through periods of dramatic temperature fluctuations. What caused those fluctuations before man was burning fossil fuels?
Another thing to consider -- we only have reliable archived temperature data as far back as the mid-late 1800s. So we can only compare the current climate to that set of data. Who is to say that there weren't periods where temperatures spiked dramatically (a rapid acceleration of warming) BEFORE the 1800s? What was responsible for it then?
A good read on this topic is "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by a former bigwig for Greenpeace, Bjorn Lomborg.It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.
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06-16-2006, 08:19 AM #16
[quote]You are right that the planet is and has been getting warmer for last ~200,000yrs. I don
Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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06-16-2006, 08:28 AM #17Another thing to consider -- we only have reliable archived temperature data as far back as the mid-late 1800s. So we can only compare the current climate to that set of data.
Who is to say that there weren't periods where temperatures spiked dramatically (a rapid acceleration of warming) BEFORE the 1800s?
What was responsible for it then?Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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06-16-2006, 10:26 AM #18
You call tree rings RELIABLE temperature data?! I'm calling bullshit on that! So just by looking at tree rings you can tell within a few degrees accuracy what the temperature was way back when?
Ya right.
Originally Posted by Scott
Originally Posted by ScottIt's only "science" if it supports the narrative.
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06-16-2006, 12:55 PM #19You call tree rings RELIABLE temperature data?!
Thanks for validating my point. When man wasn't around to burn fossil fuels, the Earth still underwent periods of dramatic warming.
Scott wrote:
One can easily prove in a high school class room that more C02 in the atmosphere will cause warming.
Huh? CO2 by itself isn't responsible for heating the classroom. The fact that the room is full of 98.6 degree bodies breathing out air at 98.6 degrees in close proximity is responsible for warming up the classroom. Don't you remember that from your Thermodynamics courses in college?
What you cannot prove is how much (some argue miniscule and other's great and the affect). It would be impossible to prove how much the earth would warm, or if it would even be small or large, at least in this stage in time. Too many factors are involved that are impossible to replicate in any laboritory. The oceans absorb a huge amount of CO2, and the amount isn't even known. Forest absorb it too, though this is a bit easier to calculate. There are hundreds of other factors as well.
Also, I actually don't have any problem with anyone disagreeing with anything about global warming, and this is true even of my own writtings and experiements. I would never make any claims as to I know that much about global warming. If people with to disagree and share data and ideas I'm open.
What I do not like is people making decisions based on personal beliefs or politics. This should not be the scientific way. I believe those whom do wish to express their opinions on whether or not (and especially not) it
would at least be willing to at least do their own research, experiements, writting and verification of equasions, and comparing several data sources before thinking they can make a decision on the matter. What is wrong with that?
PS, I would be more than happy (seriously, no sarcasm) to compare yours and mine knowlege of thermodynamics. It would be fun to discuss, because I seldom find anyone whom is interested in discussing the subject
Anyone voting "no", could you please show me some of your data (not Googled data-yours), experiments, and equasions that you used to come up with your conclusions that it does not exist. I won't disagree. I would even be interested in the data.Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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06-16-2006, 01:24 PM #20Originally Posted by Scott Patterson
[quote]
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