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  1. #2261

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    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    another karen

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  7. #2265
    ephemeral excursionist blueeyes's Avatar
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    Because I am typing this on my phone as I have time the next couple of days anything Justin has written will have a double dash at the beginning and end. My reply will follow.


    --OK thanks, let's work with this then. Yes, Medicare fraud is a no-no. So the question is, have doctors and medical staff been pressured to add COVID 19 as the cause of death? It would seem so.--


    Where is your evidence that doctors are being pressured to add COVID-19? From videos posted by disgruntled right wing docs? I don't buy into their bullshit anymore than I do left wing nut jobs.


    For those on this board that do like to read articles for themselves and actually search out and sift through the news fodder I will post links to articles I have read to help me make my own decisions. For those of you who can't bother actually reading anything and just like to propagate fear I will put brief bullet points. Because it isn't going to make a difference in what I post your mind is clearly made up to buy into the Khanspearacies and not fully educate yourself by reading the entire article.


    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...icates-984407/


    In the article above points i find useful
    • There is, of course, no evidence that COVID-19 death certificates are being manipulated to inflate the death count — and needless to say, having someone with a doctor’s credentials publicly diminish the threat of COVID-19 is dangerous to the public good, to say the least
    • “This public-health data is beneficial to all of us, eventually giving us a handle on who is most likely to die of COVID-19,” says Aiken. “It is not a conspiracy and not a departure from typical practice.” She also adds that it would be “very difficult” to manipulate data, considering how many “checks and balances [there are] in the U.S. death-investigation system,” with medical examiners’ offices sharing reports of COVID-19 deaths with both the Department of Health and the Bureau of Vital Records. “So there are three groups continuously analyzing, vetting, and refining the reported death information,” she says.


    Justin you provide me with solid hard evidence that doctors are being pressured to put COVID-19 on death certs. Until I have solid evidence I do not believe this is maliciously happening to inflate COVID-19 deaths to further some left wing agenda.



    Anyone suspected of COVID-19 and is in a hospital will have to have extra items to take care of the patient. And even if they have underlying conditions that most likely cause their death while having a comorbidity of COVID-19, that will go on a patients chart and medical coding to help pay for the costs of taking care of the patient. You have no clue how complicated medical billing is. No one does unless you work in coding and billing.

    For fun here is a paper on two patients who died before confirmation of COVID-19.

    https://academic.oup.com/ajcp/article/153/6/725/5818922



    Results



    A 77-year-old obese man with a history of hypertension, splenectomy, and 6 days of fever and chills died while being transported for medical care. He tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 on postmortem nasopharyngeal and lung parenchymal swabs. Autopsy revealed diffuse alveolar damage and chronic inflammation and edema in the bronchial mucosa. A 42-year-old obese man with a history of myotonic dystrophy developed abdominal pain followed by fever, shortness of breath, and cough. Postmortem nasopharyngeal swab was positive for SARS-CoV-2; lung parenchymal swabs were negative. Autopsy showed acute bronchopneumonia with evidence of aspiration. Neither autopsy revealed viral inclusions, mucus plugging in airways, eosinophils, or myocarditis.


    Conclusions


    SARS-CoV-2 testing can be performed at autopsy. Autopsy findings such as diffuse alveolar damage and airway inflammation reflect true virus-related pathology; other findings represent superimposed or unrelated processes.


    Guess what the one person was not counted as dying with COVID-19 because he died of aspirating food into his lungs. But he would be counted as a person who had COVID-19. Because he did.


    There is a podcast that discusses the paper if you would prefer to listen. You will find it here.


    https://academic.oup.com/labmed/pages/Podcasts


    --The question is, why? Why is there the suggestion to classify it as the virus?--

    To pay medical costs associated with taking care of a patient with or suspected of COVID-19. This is not some nefarious deed.


    https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-...with-covid-19/

    The above link goes through how estimation of taking care of COVID-19 patients.

    A few paragraphs to show where the numbers come from.

    To project how much hospitals would get paid by the federal government for treating uninsured patients, we look at payments for admissions for similar conditions. For less severe hospitalizations, we use the average Medicare payment for respiratory infections and inflammations with major comorbidities or complications in 2017, which was $13,297. For more severe hospitalizations, we use the average Medicare payment for a respiratory system diagnosis with ventilator support for greater than 96 hours, which was $40,218. Each of these average payments was then increased by 20% to account for the add-on to Medicare inpatient reimbursement for patients with COVID-19 that was included in the CARES Act.1

    Before accounting for the 20% add on, Medicare payments are about*half of what private insurers pay*on average for the same diagnoses. In the absence of this new proposed policy, many of the uninsured would typically be billed based on hospital charges, which are the undiscounted “list prices” for care and are typically much higher than even private insurance reimbursement.

    Based on the above, we estimate total payments to hospitals for treating uninsured patients under the Trump administration policy would range from $13.9 billion to $41.8 billion. At the top end of the range, payments on behalf of the uninsured would consume more than 40% of the $100 billion fund Congress created to help hospitals and others respond to the COVID-19 epidemic. Given the uncertainty of our estimates of the total funding that will be needed to reimburse hospitals, and the fact that infections may come in several waves over the next year,2*it is unclear whether the new fund will be able to cover the costs of the uninsured in addition to other needs, such as the purchase of medical supplies and the construction of temporary facilities.


    --With videos, they are easier for me to digest because I can listen to them while working. --

    Again you want to debate...read what is written and presented to you and provided links to dispute your claim or stop posting crap to be disputed. Saying it is not worth my time to look at what you came with is a cowards cop out. And only tells me you are definitely a sheeple. What are you afraid of...that you might be educated beyond the narrative you "want" so desperately to believe. That there is a "reason" this pandemic has happened? It is mother ****ing nature at her cruelest plain and simple. Life truly sucks sometimes. End of story.

    --And with my wife, yes she is an RN, working on her NP, she's got to wear the mask all day. The Doctors/surgeons are asked to wear the masks too, but they don't. They do whatever the hell they want.--

    I don't wear a mask. I do wear one as I walk through the hospital hallways but thankfully in the lab it turns out no one is making me keep it on. So I don't. I have always worn one if I was sick at the hospital or if I had to work in close proximity to someone who kept coughing but wouldn't wear a mask themselves. The hospitals like the college are covering their asses because if someone comes to the hospital without COVID-19 and then ends up with COVID-19 you can damn well bet the hospital or college is going to be in a lawsuit. Which is bullshit. But this society is so ****ing litigious that if someone thinks they can get a dime out of you they will.

    Doctors do what doctors do. Depending on the doctor it truly doesn't surprise me. Some of them have god complexes and some are truly humble and intelligent human beings.

    If I were a nurse right now with kids and family at home. I would absolutely without reservation wear a mask at work. And before I walked in my door at home I would strip in the garage and put my work clothes in a bag to be washed immediately. Put a towel down on the driver's seat and wash it when I got home. And disinfect my car or better if I had 2 cars the family would not ride in my car until we had better understanding of the full implications of this virus. But each person has to decide what level of protection they are comfortable with and not be shamed by assholes.



    --So if we can confirm the virus death numbers are being nudged upwards, we have to ask why. We have noticed only in the last week the CDC had to be a little more honest with us. So instead of 60k deaths from COVID, they admitted those numbers came from COVID "or" Flu "or" pneumonia.--

    I have attached a pdf that goes over the current guidelines on reporting COVID-19 deaths. Please read it.

    Vital Statistics Reporting Guidance
    Report No. 3 April 2020
    Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

    http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5eb594e7...vsrg03-508.pdf


    --Somebody wants the count to be higher. Somebody wants the economy shut down longer.--

    This point will all depend on what party you subscribe too. I am not sure what I personally believe here other than I feel like this pandemic has definitely highlighted our governments weaknesses and stupidity. Trump in my humble opinion is not a true leader. Never have I seen a more divided country than at this moment in time. He contradicts himself constantly and helps to contribute to the current environment of confusion. If he loses this election he truly has no one to blame but himself but Trump and his supporters will forever blame Pelosi and this pandemic ad nauseum . If he does win all he will do is gloat and stroke his over inflated ego. Democrats are no better. I have no love for either side. For this one point I have no rebuttal.


    -- Somebody NEVER wanted Trump to mention HydroxyChloroquine with Zinc as a great remedy (and look at the results, plus look at the criticisms lash out about it). --


    HC w/ Z is no cure all for this virus. You provide me with peer reviewed scientific paper that proves significant improvement.


    I am not saying it doesn't work. But most of the literature I have read shows it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Plus the side effects for the dose required to produce results can produce bad outcomes for the patients heart.

    They are still doing studies. I think there are far better options than HC w/Z like utilizing convalescent plasma from recovered COVID-19 patients.


    --Somebody is contaminating the COVID tests with COVID. These things are happening--

    Where do you get this idea? Please enlighten this lab technician.

    There you go Justin I did your homework for you because you are too wrapped up in Khanspearacy theories to see through the propaganda.

    Seriously try researching objectively yourself. Instead of just watching videos produced by people trying to make money off selling books and horribly produced documentaries.



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  9. #2266
    ephemeral excursionist blueeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    OK this is a little disturbing
    https://twitter.com/delbigtree/statu...25685014568960

    "WHAT WOULD YOU DO if your six year old son or daughter tested positive for COVID19 and was taken from your home to a quarantine center by Ventura Health Authorities?"
    Again spreading fear...

    Where in this video do they say they would take a child away? I heard no mention of if your child come down with COVID-19 we will take them from you.

    What I heard was a plan for if there is no way to isolate they are looking for alternatives.

    Are you telling me that if you lived in a single bedroom home with your family and you came down with COVID-19 and had no way to isolate yourself from your family you wouldn't consider the option of going to a hotel room until you were better?




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  10. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by blueeyes View Post
    Where in this video do they say they would take a child away? I heard no mention of if your child come down with COVID-19 we will take them from you.

    What I heard was a plan for if there is no way to isolate they are looking for alternatives.

    Well, he didn't come right out and say "we are coming for your children," but he did allude to the fact that they will come into your home and remove an infected person and relocate them to some other location. At 1:59 it is stated very clearly that they will "move people like this (infected people) into other kinds of housing that they have available." If the "other kind of person" in your house just happens to be 6 years old, then yeah he'll be relocated against his will.


    But the flaw in Justin's reasoning here is that Covid has been shown NOT to have a strong affinity towards children. For some reason, kids under the age of 10 are hardly affected by this illness. And even kids who do contract it typically are unaffected and many don't even show symptoms.
    #NotMyVirus

  11. #2268
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    Covid has been shown NOT to have a strong affinity towards children. For some reason, kids under the age of 10 are hardly affected by this illness. And even kids who do contract it typically are unaffected and many don't even show symptoms.
    kids may show weaker symptoms and fewer hospitalizations but they could still be contagious and preliminary data show they do test positive

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  12. #2269
    ^^^?????

    I didn't say "kids don't get coronavirus." I said they are hardly affected. From the table you posted it appears hundreds of thousands were tested, but kids under the age of 17 were consistently under 15% positive. Deaths in that age range are almost unheard of.
    #NotMyVirus

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  14. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    ^^^?????

    I didn't say "kids don't get coronavirus." I said they are hardly affected. From the table you posted it appears hundreds of thousands were tested, but kids under the age of 17 were consistently under 15% positive. Deaths in that age range are almost unheard of.
    my post was not in disagreement with you about stronger symptoms and deaths (which i believe you mean by "affects"). if covid "not having a strong affinity towards children" means their likelihood of becoming infected (not simply severity of effects exhibited) relative to that of people in higher age ranges, results are mixed and evolving as more testing is done. i don't know that testing is widespread enough for scientists to determine yet how large that difference might be if there is one.

  15. #2271
    ephemeral excursionist blueeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    Well, he didn't come right out and say "we are coming for your children," but he did allude to the fact that they will come into your home and remove an infected person and relocate them to some other location. At 1:59 it is stated very clearly that they will "move people like this (infected people) into other kinds of housing that they have available." If the "other kind of person" in your house just happens to be 6 years old, then yeah he'll be relocated against his will.


    But the flaw in Justin's reasoning here is that Covid has been shown NOT to have a strong affinity towards children. For some reason, kids under the age of 10 are hardly affected by this illness. And even kids who do contract it typically are unaffected and many don't even show symptoms.
    Exactly he didn't come out and say I am taking your children. People who want to spread fear or troll the internet start this crap.

    For fun Monday morning I am calling the Ventura health department and asking them myself. I am pretty damn sure they will laugh. Think logically why the hell would you take a sick child from a parent that was perfectly capable of taking care of that child? Cost you more money to take care of that kid.

    https://keyt.com/health/coronavirus/...acing-efforts/

    The person who originally tested positive stays in isolation for 14 days. Ventura County will provide a free hotel room and meals if patients can't easily isolate.


    “If they are not able to isolate themselves in the home, or if we determine that there might be a high risk family member in the house, we have a special housing program that we can offer them,” said Edmondson.


    If you can't read there is a news clip you can listen to..


    I will get back to you on Monday with what they say about a 6 year old.

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  17. #2272

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  19. #2273
    ephemeral excursionist blueeyes's Avatar
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    More on that ridiculous documentary from a board certified Pathologist with links to her sources.

    Kat Montgomery
    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...743&id=2228322

    **EDITED TO ADD: I wrote this post to help my friends sort through misinformation and did not expect it to go viral. Several commenters have asked me to cite sources, and I agree that this is important to do. I still have a day job, but I have edited to include primary sources for all points when possible.

    **SECOND EDIT: People seem to not understand that PubMed (ncbi) is the international database for cataloguing medical research studies and instead think it only contains government-funded information or research. This is not the case. It is basically the Google of peer-reviewed research studies.**

    *The following statements represent my personal informed views and not those of any institution*

    First, background: I’m a physician (specifically a board-certified pathologist, which includes microbiology and laboratory medicine) with a master’s degree in epidemiology.

    In the last day or two, several friends have shared or posted about a video “documentary” called “Plandemic”. The film depicts now-discredited former researcher Judy Mikovits who shares a plausible-sounding narrative about the current pandemic. The problem here is that nearly all of her scientific statements are demonstrably false. If you have more to add to this list, or credible data to the contrary, please start a discussion. I suspect there are many more false claims in this video, but these are just the ones that stuck out to me as a physician with epidemiology training.

    - She states “There is no vaccine for any RNA virus that works." Incorrect: Polio, hepatitis A, measles, to name a few.
    (Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4763971/)

    - Her retracted paper was actually not about vaccines at all, even though she insinuates that it was.

    (Here is the article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19815723)

    - She states that Ebola could not infect humans until it was engineered to do so in her laboratory. This is false.

    (Here is an article describing an outbreak of Ebola in 1976, long before Dr. Mikovits was conducting research: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article..._3/S93/2388104 )

    - Likewise, many other zoonotic viruses have been shown to gain mutations that allow them to infect humans. This would not be some kind of new, crazy idea. We actually predicted it years ago: we just didn’t know exactly which virus or when it would occur.

    (Here is an article from 2015 discussing the likely emergence of future coronavirus pandemics: https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/...985-015-0422-1 )


    - She states that the US was working with Wuhan to study coronaviruses years ago, like it’s a “gotcha” moment: yes, of course we were doing this – Wuhan is a coronavirus hotspot and it makes sense to study this family of viruses where it naturally occurs.

    (Same article as above: https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/...985-015-0422-1 )

    - She states that COPD lungs are identical to COVID-19 lungs. As a pathologist, this is ludicrous –

    any practicing physician would be able to tell COPD from COVID-19, both clinically and histologically.

    (One article discussing an overview of tools for diagnosing COVID19 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c02624, one about CT specifically https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...1.2020.1750307, and one about histology specifically https://academic.oup.com/ajcp/article/153/6/725/5818922)

    - The statement taken out of context from the CDC death certificate recommendation reads in full “In cases where a definitive diagnosis of COVID-19 cannot be made, but is suspected or likely (the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed”. In these instances, certifiers should use their best judgment in determining if a COVID-19 diagnosis was likely. Testing for COVID-19 should be conducted whenever possible.”.

    My physician colleagues are not being pressured to put COVID-19 on death certificates when it should not be there.

    (Here is the actual document with instructions for
    filling out death certificates from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf )


    - The idea that physicians are incorrectly diagnosing COVID-19 due to financial incentive is also ridiculous. Medicare sometimes bundles payments for some conditions (i.e. if you have a heart attack, medicare may pay XX for your treatment) –

    it’s possible the hospital could get paid $13,000 for your COVID-19 admission, but do you know what that’s based on? The fact that the average cost of a hospital admission for a respiratory condition is $13,297.

    (I can’t post a scientific study here, since this isn’t a scientific fact, but this article describes the procedure in detail: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...us/3000638001/ )


    - She states that hydroxychloroquine has been “extensively studied in this family of viruses” –

    in fact, it has not been studied well in coronaviruses. It HAS been studied in malaria, which is not a virus.

    (Here is the one study that was performed that people like to cite, and it is an in vitro study (not in humans), of SARS (not COVID-19), and chloroquine (not hydroxychloroquine): https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/...1743-422X-2-69 ).

    And yes, it is considered an essential medicine for the treatment of malaria. Not for coronaviruses.

    -Furthermore, the data on hydroxychloroquine are much weaker than they originally appeared: the small study that was highly publicized was not a randomized controlled trial, and the only patients who died were those who received hydroxychloroquine (and these were EXCLUDED FROM ANALYSIS!). This is terrible science. Even so, we want to investigate all possible treatments, so controlled trials are being conducted on hydroxychloroquine right now.

    (One study published on May 7 shows no benefit to using hydroxychloroquine https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056...0?listPDF=true )

    - She insinuates that there is a hydroxychloroquine shortage as a result of reduced production. In fact, the shortage has resulted from an increase in demand: people who take this medication regularly are writing extended prescriptions and because physicians are using it for COVID19 patients because they have nothing else to try.
    (https://jamanetwork.com/channels/hea...y-81mC6hkRQ6fs).

    - “All flu vaccines contain coronaviruses”.

    Nope, absolutely false. (In fact, it’s so false based on the way vaccines are made that there are no studies specifically stating this claim. It would be like trying to conduct a study to examine whether humans can live with zero oxygen. Nope, we can’t. No study needed.)


    - The ideas that sheltering in place somehow harms your immune system or that you may reactivate a virus in yourself by wearing a mask have been thoroughly debunked in other posts and I won’t get into the details here. Both national societies of emergency medicine have condemned the statements of these doctors, one of whom is not board-certified. (Please refer to Dr. Kasten’s post and others about these)

    - Lastly, private companies removing false information from their platforms does not represent repression or promotion of propaganda. It’s helping to promote the spread of sound scientific information. If you think lies should be permitted to circulate freely alongside the truth with the intention of reaching people who won’t be able to tell the difference, you are part of the problem.




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  20. #2274
    There are people out there that believe in God, ghosts, UFOs. Jesus died and was raised from the dead to save us all from ourselves...oh yeah, we got Satan, too.

    Drink this Kool-aid, it's the blood of Christ. Put on a pair of white sneakers and we'll hitch a ride on the next comet. The planet is flat. Don't swim in that dark lake, there's something lurking in there that's gonna get your ass. There's a rapist hiding behind every bush. All young black men that look kinda sketchy are criminals and killers. Adults should be allowed to have sex with children or animals if they wish. A woman 8 months in can choose to have a fetus chopped to pieces and thrown in the trash if she's tired of being pregnant. There are advocates for everything I just wrote.

    Shoving a cactus up your ass, or say...a gerbil, is probably not a good idea. Drinking fish tank cleaner or injecting Lysol into your arm would be rather foolish, too.

    A perfect world were everyone says and does everything "correctly" is impossible...primarily because "correct" or "factual" can vary so widely form person to person. One man's trash is another's treasure.

    It makes no sense frustrating yourself trying to beat "common sense" into someone else's brain. You're just wasting time and energy. Make an effort with your kids, I suppose...but otherwise I think it's best to just ignore those that appear to be careening around.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

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  22. #2275
    ephemeral excursionist blueeyes's Avatar
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    https://medium.com/@noahhaber/flatte...y-9aa8cf92d652



    Vet your sources or more people will be deluded
    written by Noah Haber, ScD (@noahhaber), Mollie Wood, PhD (@anecdatally), and James Heathers, PhD (@jamesheathers), none of whom are infectious disease epidemiologists


    Everyone has seen messages telling you we must “act today or people will die,”*COVID-19 is basically just the flu, and/or that “flattening the curve is a deadly delusion.” These often have numbers, charts, citations, retroactively edited titles (“taksies backsies”), and data “science.”
    Unfortunately, all of the above are signs of DKE-19, a highly contagious illness threatening the response against COVID-19. We must act today to flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology, or we will all be in peril.

    What is DKE-19?

    Dunning-Kruger Effect (DKE)*is a phenomenon where people lack the ability to understand their lack of ability. While strains of DKE typically circulate seasonally, a new and more virulent strain called DKE-19 is now reaching pandemic proportions.
    When you’re done reading this article, this is what you’ll take away:

    DKE-19 is coming to you.

    It’s coming at an exponential speed: gradually, then suddenly, then suddenlier.

    When it does, your feeds will be overwhelmed.

    Exhausted fact checkers will break down. Some will die of sadness.

    The only way to prevent this is social media distancing. Not tomorrow. Today.

    That means vetting sources BEFORE you share, starting now.

    What are the symptoms?
    Signs of DKE-19 generally appear 3–5 days after learning that the word “epidemiology” is not the study of skin diseases. Symptoms vary, but include extreme claims, making charts, and publishing on Medium. Although most cases are mild or even entirely asymptomatic,*the recent outbreak indicates that severe DKE-19 primarily affects men ages 24–36 working in tech, for reasons unknown to scientists who are unaccountably also men.
    How is the infection spread?
    DKE-19 is in the same family of misinformation viruses as the one that caused the b00m3R-FB outbreak in 2016. It is transmitted person-to-person through a variety of means, including listening to/repeating bullshit while on the toilet (“feco-aural transmission”), and sharing dirty tweedles.
    Transmission most often occurs through casual digital contact from asymptomatic individuals. This strain tends to be hidden in well-intended partial truths, making population detection more difficult. DKE-19 can hide in viral reservoirs throughout the internet. Once infection takes hold, DKE-19 is exceedingly difficult to treat. Several cases of second-hand craniofacial injury have been reported, related to collisions between desks and actual experts’ heads.
    It will only get worse
    Recent lockdowns to contain COVID-19 have resulted in Bay Area tech employees having vastly more time on their thumbs. We expect that exponential growth of bullshit takes are likely to grow exponentialer until the heat death of the universe and/or last Tuesday.
    Are you at risk?
    We have combined the collective expertise of three people with PhDs to create*a machine learning model*which predicts the spread of DKE-19-related misinformation. We believe this to be the best, most accurate infectious disease model published on Medium as of the time of this writing.
    Things you can do to flatten the curve

    Wash your phone for at least 20 seconds fully immersed in soapy water

    6 ft of social media distancing

    If take appears hot/feverish, seek expert help

    Check the qualifications of authors BEFORE sharing

    Listen to people who know what they are talking about

    Push for better social media infrastructure that can slow the spread of DKE-19 and future strains

    Only you can help #flattenthecurve of DKE-19
    Thanks to Dan Larremore (@DanLarremore) and Megan Sass (@Megan_Sass) for helping edit.


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  24. #2276
    Basin Cruiser BasinCruiser's Avatar
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    "Where there is no law, there is no opportunity, where there is no justice, there is no liberty, where there is no safety, there is no future."

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  26. #2277
    ^^^ Now that's funny ^^^

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  28. #2278
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/TWpjc1QZg84

    If you can spare 37 mins.
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
    ●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

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  30. #2279
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

  31. #2280
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
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    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

  32. Likes erial, BasinCruiser liked this post

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