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Thread: Long rappel spinning issue

  1. #21
    The spinning incident did occur on a coiled 330ft 10.5mm Sterling HTP rope. In the future, I will not coil for the big drops. Thank you for that tip 2065toyota

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  4. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Details matter, in this case the details of the rope path.
    In this instance, it was the big drop in Insomnia. The edge was protected with a car floor mat attached to some roughly 5mm cord.

  5. #23
    If coiling twists the rope depends totally on how the rope was coiled and uncoiled. If coiled properly your ropes should have no twists.

  6. #24
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    If coiling twists the rope depends totally on how the rope was coiled and uncoiled. If coiled properly your ropes should have no twists.
    It may be more difficult to UNcoil without inducing twists (than to coil it well, twist-wise).

    Tom

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  8. #25
    Do you bag your rope for long raps, Tom?

  9. #26
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcweyen View Post
    Do you bag your rope for long raps, Tom?
    Me, I am a fanatic. I bag my ropes for ALL raps. Or at least, pretty close.

    I have always considered it as "when someone officially becomes a canyoneer", when they realize how handy rope bags are. If you don't use rope bags, you are just a climber who happens to be in a canyon.

    What rope bags are most useful for is deploying the rope. Arrive at the anchor, secure the top of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. The rope is deployed, no knots, no fuss. And yes, coiling and uncoiling almost always introduces twists in the rope, bagging does not.

    Tom

  10. #27
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Long rappel spinning issue

    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Me, I am a fanatic. I bag my ropes for ALL raps. Or at least, pretty close.

    I have always considered it as "when someone officially becomes a canyoneer", when they realize how handy rope bags are. If you don't use rope bags, you are just a climber who happens to be in a canyon.

    What rope bags are most useful for is deploying the rope. Arrive at the anchor, secure the top of the rope to the anchor, drop the bag. The rope is deployed, no knots, no fuss. And yes, coiling and uncoiling almost always introduces twists in the rope, bagging does not.

    Tom
    X2.

    And another added benefit of a rope bag is when you toss the bag off a rap where you canít see the bottom ,you can hear when it lands (or not).

    If not, the rap isnít long enough or it got tangled up somewhere, etc.


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  11. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    And another added benefit of a rope bag is when you toss the bag off a rap where you can’t see the bottom ,you can hear when it lands (or not).
    That's the liberal view :-)

    More conservatively: under the right conditions, you might hear the bag hit something, which may or may not be the intended landing zone.

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  13. #29
    My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.

  14. #30
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcweyen View Post
    My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.
    Do you need a bigger pack? Plenty of Heaps packs in stock here.

    Do you go solo alot. It is a surprise for quite a few people, but the bag can be set up for stuffing at the same time other people are rappelling.

    etc. that horse has been beat to death. WhatEVER!

    Tom

  15. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mcweyen View Post
    My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.
    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearg...-2014-changes/

    Zip-out foam reduces bag volume, for use in drier canyons.

    Bag-a-neering is generally faster than coil-a-neering, all things considered. With a short rope, sure, a good coiler may be able to get that rope coiled and stowed faster than the bagger. But...there are other aspect of rope management. For example in wet canyons, moving rope forward for efficiency is often done by throwing the bag down drops, into deep water. Not a good idea to do that w/coils.

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  17. #32
    I've already got rope bags for up to 200ft. Apparently, I need to start carrying a bigger pack all the time and add another rope bag for longer ropes. When I've been on trips where everyone knows most of the finer details of canyoneering, it's much easier to make bagging happen quickly. From what I'm gathering, teaching bagging needs to go up higher on the list when working with newer canyoneers.

    Thanks for all the info to all who supplied it here.

  18. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mcweyen View Post
    From what I'm gathering, teaching bagging needs to go up higher on the list when working with newer canyoneers.
    Bagging rope is the first thing I teach noobs for two reasons. It's a way they can contribute that is difficult to screw up, and I hate bagging rope.... win, win :-)

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  20. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Details matter, in this case the details of the rope path. Critr has the LEAST twisting I have seen on a Figure-8 based Device, Sqwwurrellll about the most.

    Tom
    ^ Yes This

  21. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Long rappels generally require (almost a rule) an adjustment to friction while on the rappel. How do you intend to increase your friction?

    Tom
    On a side note, can somebody explain the physics behind why you have to add friction toward the end of a long rappel, but don't seem to on shorter rappels? How come the last 50' of a 300' rappel feels very different than the last 50 feet of an 85' rap?

  22. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by USofCS View Post
    On a side note, can somebody explain the physics behind why you have to add friction toward the end of a long rappel, but don't seem to on shorter rappels? How come the last 50' of a 300' rappel feels very different than the last 50 feet of an 85' rap?
    Actual physics - no difference - assuming device settings are the same

    Mental and physical fatigue play a major role. A lower friction setting is used to start the 300' rap to account for the belay effect of the rope weight, which is not there at the end of the rap if settings are not changed to account for it

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  24. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by 2065toyota View Post
    Actual physics - no difference - assuming device settings are the same

    Mental and physical fatigue play a major role. A lower friction setting is used to start the 300' rap to account for the belay effect of the rope weight, which is not there at the end of the rap if settings are not changed to account for it
    I agree that fatigue is the main factor, but I do wonder if a hot device adds just a little less friction.

  25. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by mcweyen View Post
    My issue thus far with bagging has been space. I would love to bag more, but I also like to be a minimalist. Bags add a lot of space. I'm starting to think that I would prefer to have some breaking point between coiling and bagging, maybe 150 feet of rope or so. Bagging seems to take longer for short rappels and less time for longer rappels. The benefits of bagging seem to compound with the length of the rope. My experience is that setting up to bag is an added time. For short raps, I can be done coiling by the time others are still setting up to bag. For long raps, the number of knots, twists, etc add enough time that bagging wins out.
    What kind of minimalist buys a 100m 10.5mm rope? JK but curious what kind of rope it is and why did you chose that diameter?

    10.5mm rope has roughly 36% more volume than a 9mm and 72% more volume than an 8mm rope.

    Bags don't really add volume but are awkward if you have a small pack. The solution is a larger pack or sling the rope bag over the shoulder on approach. In the canyon you can easily pass it off on a noob during almost any DC even if it isn't hard. Just lie and say "jeez this looks awkward" and they'll usually gladly offer to take it. If they don't fall for it throw it down the drop and pick it up after.

    As for time, an efficient or time conscientious group will have someone ready to bag before the last person is down. You have to consider time at the start of the rappel too. How much time is lost when coils are thrown over an edge and then left deciding if it reaches or the coil looks funny after it passes out of view and you pull the rope back up to make sure its not in a rats nest? You can easily chuck a rope bag 20-30 feet out for the drops you can't see the bottom to get that verification of striking ground. Eventually we all succumb to the rope bag unless you are the very stubborn type. Don't resist it :)

    Assuming you are a coil master I think the safety factor and reliability of being able to throw a rope off a complex rap or into a waterfall and have a high certainty that there aren't any knots waiting for you is reason enough.

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