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Thread: Trump will visit Utah to change Bears Ears and Grand Staircase national monuments

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by DirkHammergate View Post

    I'd bet the house on this. If Roy Moore (R) was to run against resurrected the Jesus Christ who ran as a (D) and was known to be the Son of God. In Alabama Roy Moore would win. I think it'd be the same thing here in Utah if Jesus (D) ran against Hatch or Lee. .
    Nah man, you've got it totally backwards...it's the liberals that would crucify his ass all over again. Especially the Jewish hierarchy that hate Israel.

    Jesus would be a Republican.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

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  3. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by twotimer View Post
    Nah man, you've got it totally backwards...it's the liberals that would crucify his ass all over again. Especially the Jewish hierarchy that hate Israel.

    Jesus would be a Republican.

    I'm just going to let you keep talking here. It's like you have autism. Keep it going, come along pig. I can wait for my biblical citations of Jesus quotes later.

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by DirkHammergate View Post
    I'm just going to let you keep talking here. It's like you have autism. Keep it going, come along pig.
    Oh my...not very friendly now, are ya? It appears my thinned skinned assessment is spot on. Perhaps try to lighten up there a little, Mr. Dirk. Being an easy going asshole is much better than an uptight one.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  5. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by DirkHammergate View Post
    I'm just going to let you keep talking here. It's like you have autism. Keep it going, come along pig. I can wait for my biblical citations of Jesus quotes later.
    http://thenewbanalistsorchestra.band...m/album/mammon

  6. #105
    @Brian in SLC - ho boy that public meeting in Monticello ought to be interesting. Wish I still lived there.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  7. Likes Iceaxe liked this post
  8. #106
    Some of my favorite reading is when people that don't believe in Jesus Christ, pick and choose certain attributes they pretend he had or didn't have, and assign him to a political party or ideology. They'll go up to the Googler and type in their favorite search terms "reasons why Jesus would be a ___________ today" and they pretend they have any clue about Jesus' personality (right after they tell the rest of us it's either foolish or offensive to discuss him).

    Yes, tell us why Jesus would have been a Liberal today, we've NEVER had the pleasure of hearing this.

  9. #107
    One thing for sure is that when Jesus comes again, he's going to designate a bunch of monuments and wilderness areas and He won't take no for an answer!

    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  10. Likes double moo, Sombeech liked this post
  11. #108
    https://stewart.house.gov/sites/stew...ment%20Act.pdf

    Here is a copy of the bill to make the new National Park. It looks like the plan is to have Kane and Garfield County Commissioners, the counties rep for the state legislature (currently Mike Noel), and a few other presidential appointees manage the park instead of the Park Superintendent. I have no idea if that is done at other parks, but it seems a little strange. It also calls for the transfer of HITRR to the state.

    Has anyone seen a map of the proposed park? I am interested if places that are already somewhat crowded (Coyote, Neon, Spooky, etc.) would be in the park. I have to admit it's funny to think of hundreds of fat tourists stuffed in Peekaboo and Spooky gulches on Memorial Day weekend, but I don't see myself spending much time there. Also why does the state have such a hardon for HITTR?

  12. Likes rockgremlin liked this post
  13. #109
    Also why does the state have such a hardon for HITTR?
    There are several reasons. The HITTR has always been contentious. Here are some of the reasons:

    Right now, group size in limited to 12-25 (depending on which side/area of the road) as per Monument regulation. The state and counties don't want a limit on group sizes.

    The state wants the HITTR paved to Harris or Twenty Five Mile Wash using Federal funds.

    The first approximately 30% of the road is in Garfield County, while the rest of the road is in Kane County. Garfield County benefits from tourism on the road, but the majority of the road is in Kane County and since it dead ends Kane County businesses don't benefit even though Kane County is supposed to be in change of maintenance of the road. The county is given Federal money to maintain the road, but they seldom to on the Kane County side because they don't see a benefit.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  14. #110
    Before I form an opinion, I need to know who this National Park was stolen from

  15. Likes nelsonccc liked this post
  16. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    There are several reasons. The HITTR has always been contentious. Here are some of the reasons:

    Right now, group size in limited to 12-25 (depending on which side/area of the road) as per Monument regulation. The state and counties don't want a limit on group sizes.

    The state wants the HITTR paved to Harris or Twenty Five Mile Wash using Federal funds.

    The first approximately 30% of the road is in Garfield County, while the rest of the road is in Kane County. Garfield County benefits from tourism on the road, but the majority of the road is in Kane County and since it dead ends Kane County businesses don't benefit even though Kane County is supposed to be in change of maintenance of the road. The county is given Federal money to maintain the road, but they seldom to on the Kane County side because they don't see a benefit.
    Is there a big demand for huge groups out there or something and why do they want it paved? I see Kane Counties pov that they don't want to waste their funds on the road, but how does the state taking over change that? Would the state and not the county suddenly be on the hook for maintenance? I have kinda tuned out from the great road debates of years past.

  17. #112
    Is there a big demand for huge groups out there or something and why do they want it paved?
    I don't know if there is a big demand for big groups, but the state and counties certainly don't like the group number restrictions.

    Many from the county and state have wanted the road paved for a long time. There are both pros and cons for this.

    To be honest, I have mixed feelings on this. Pave roads are actually more environmentally friendly in many ways.


    I see Kane Counties pov that they don't want to waste their funds on the road, but how does the state taking over change that?


    Having the state take over the road means that they could change the group size restrictions and allow more development. See also below.

    Would the state and not the county suddenly be on the hook for maintenance?
    Yes and no, but working in highway engineering, I can say that many people misunderstand the difference between US Highways, State Highways, and County Roads.

    A huge portion of State Highways and County Roads are still payed for with federal funds.

    A State Highway, with few exceptions is within the border of a single state. A county road, with few exceptions, is in the border of a single county.

    A State Highway or County Road doesn't mean that it's the State or County paying the bill to construct the road (though they pay some of it). I haven't worked directly for the state for several years, but I still do consulting work for them. Very few state road projects are done without Federal Funds. In 17 years, I have only been on one project that didn't (it was done with State Safety money). The roads will still be paid for with Federal funds. Generally Federal funds are given to the state and counties and they are given choices in which roads need more maintenance and construction projects.

    In a National Park or Monument though, the Park or Monument gets a big say in the decision, which is what the state and many counties don't like.

    That's why the pavement for the Burr Trail dead ends at or near the border of Capitol Reef National Park on either side and the road through the park is gravel. Capitol Reef National Park didn't allow that part to be paved, which was a big contention point with the counties and state. That's why the State wants some of those roads. I do see their point of view on this and have always thought there could be some kind of compromise on this.

    Obviously, I like the parks and monuments, but don't see a huge a problem with giving the counties and states more involvement with the existing roads.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  18. Likes jdn1221 liked this post
  19. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post

    OK, I've said this before numerous times, and I'm going to repeat myself again. These above quotes are founded on outright lies. Using scare tactics to sway an impressionable (and ignorant) audience. They persistently claim that mining companies are lining up to mine and drill and clear cut the Bears Ears when that is in fact a complete fallacy. There is no coal nor oil in the Bears Ears, and what little uranium there might be has been mined out years ago.

    Nobody wants to mine nor drill there. Nobody. So please stop making those ridiculous claims.
    hey rock, i read something a little different on uranium and a company's interest in it in the washington post this morning

    EXCERPTED FROM:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...581_story.html

    A uranium company launched a concerted lobbying campaign to scale back Bears Ears National Monument, saying such action would give it easier access to the area’s uranium deposits and help it operate a nearby processing mill, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post.

    :

    The documents show that Energy Fuels Resources (USA) Inc., a subsidiary of a Canadian firm, urged the Trump administration to limit the monument to the smallest size needed to protect key objects and areas, such as archeological sites, to make it easier to access the radioactive ore.

    In a May 25 letter to the Interior Department, Chief Operating Officer Mark Chalmers wrote that the 1.35 million-acre expanse Obama created “could affect existing and future mill operations.” He later noted, “There are also many other known uranium and vanadium deposits located within the [original boundaries] that could provide valuable energy and mineral resources in the future.”

    Energy Fuels Resources did not just weigh in on national monuments through public-comment letters. It hired a team of lobbyists at Faegre Baker Daniels — led by Andrew Wheeler, who is awaiting Senate confirmation as the Environmental Protection Agency’s deputy secretary — to work on the matter and other federal policies affecting the company.

    :

    The company’s vice president of operations, William Paul Goranson, joined Wheeler and two other lobbyists, including former congresswoman Mary Bono (R-Calif.), to discuss Bears Ears in a July 17 meeting with two top Zinke advisers.

    Goranson said Friday that the session with Downey Magallanes, who oversaw the monuments review and serves as Zinke’s deputy chief of staff for policy, and Vincent De Vito, his energy policy counselor, was focused on fairly narrow issues.

    Company officials “were trying to get a sense of what was going on” with the review because some of their air and water quality monitoring stations and a road leading to the now-dormant Daneros mine all lay within the original monument, Goranson explained.

    “The goal of the meeting . . . was not to go and advocate on the boundaries,” he said, adding that the lobbying for that was “on a separate track.” Still, the officials proposed small boundary adjustments to accommodate the monitoring stations as well as the mine, he acknowledged. And they emphasized that the company had cut its workforce by more than half since 2015 because of low uranium prices.

    “They heard what we had to say about the job losses, etc.,” he said. Zinke’s deputies “were pretty positively disposed to” the idea of spurring future domestic uranium production.

    The price of uranium has recently hovered between $20 and $25 per pound. To justify mining activity, it needs to approach $40 to $50. Michael Heim, a securities research analyst at Noble Capital Markets, said Friday that the current amount “is not a sustainable price” for firms such as Energy Fuels Resources. Given today’s price, Heim said, “the idea of creating more areas to mine wouldn’t have much impact.”

    But Goranson said he and other company officials are “confident” that the construction of nuclear plants in Asia and elsewhere, along with other factors, will eventually push prices higher and justify reopening the Daneros mine.

    Map sourced from BLM

    Name:  BLM-Uranium.png
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  20. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    Some of my favorite reading is when people that don't believe in Jesus Christ, pick and choose certain attributes they pretend he had or didn't have, and assign him to a political party or ideology.
    I hear ya...I just can't imagine that the folks that want to sterilize Christmas would line up behind the guy.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  21. #115
    @stefan -

    There is some truth to the article you posted concerning Daneros and Uranium mining. There may have been lobbyists hired to whisper in Zinke's ear to somehow influence monument decisions. I get that. That's what any responsible company would do when confronted with policy that affects their bottom line. But even if that did happen, it doesn't change several fundamental truths about the Uranium mining profile in that part of the State of Utah.

    First, the Daneros Mine was already carved out of the original BENM boundary, right? That said, the reduction of the BENM shouldn't have had too much of an impact. Daneros was already outside of the BENM, and now it's even farther outside of the BENM. So what?

    Second, the Daneros Mine was idled in 2012. There hasn't been any activity there in years. Their adits have been sealed. See where I'm going with this? The threat of them just going gangbusters in there and running amok, burying Native American relics and desecrating the area is a fairy tale that is just untrue and unfounded. They keep an active permit, but that doesn't mean they're producing anything currently or will produce anything in the immediate future.

    Third, outside of the idled Daneros Mine, there is literally ZERO Uranium mining activity anywhere in Utah. Not even a blip on the screen, from anyone, anywhere. The economic and business climate is just too frigid to support that industry right now. Especially when Uranium can be mined so much cheaper and easier in other parts of the world.

    All of this said, I'm going to echo what @Brian in SLC alluded to earlier: If there isn't anything in the way of mineral exploitation and development, why such a concerted effort to shrink the Ears?

    I dunno. I'm baffled by the whole thing. It doesn't make any sense. Literally the only reason I can think of to do it is to satisfy the constituency and stick it to Obama. Which is a pretty lame reason in my book.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  22. Likes stefan, nelsonccc liked this post
  23. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    All of this said, I'm going to echo what @Brian in SLC alluded to earlier: If there isn't anything in the way of mineral exploitation and development, why such a concerted effort to shrink the Ears?
    If you are interested in what the 'other side' is thinking this is an interesting read.... posted by Lynn Jackson on Facebook....

    Just sent this 600 word truth to the Desert News. We'll see if they publish it. The hysteria I'm seeing on FB, from educated people I would assume know better, is off the charts.... Off the charts.

    Monumental Debacle
    What a fine mess this has turned into. The result of a law that provided no system of checks or balances, but typically used appropriately for decades until the past 20 years. The result of abuse of that law, a campaign of purposeful disinformation, shady financial “contributions” to Native American tribes, and a lack of willingness to compromise one inch. Sadly, this is the state of public land management.

    I worked four years as a member of the Grand County Council on Congressman Rob Bishops Public Land Initiative (PLI). It was messy, nasty and ultimately failed because the conservation side refused to give an inch. Why would they, they had a White House willing to give them what they wanted as soon as they succeeded in getting the PLI jettisoned. And now here we are.

    We’ve lost our way in this country. No one understands or is willing to look for compromise. Everyone’s an “expert” because they’ve read two or three stories and visited public lands. Give my side what we want, or we’ll have a President bludgeon you into submission. Give us what we want, or we will destroy you. I used to think we were better than this, but sadly this is what we’re all about now.

    I don’t know any conservatives who are completely against protecting some of our prized lands, but the other side wants it all or nothing. Conservatives simply ask for some balance, some form of common sense to guide these types of decisions. Now, not only did the environmentalists not get what they wanted, but their unwillingness to compromise or listen to local elected officials and communities, will likely result in a wholesale re-write of the Antiquities Act, which in my opinion must be done so we can avoid this type of insanity in the future.

    The campaign of disinformation has now kicked into high gear. The miners and oil drillers allegedly waiting at the border. The State ready to sell all the land off to industrial development. The utter ruination of these lands at hand. All absolutely and patently false. It’s sad. People being fed a constant stream of lies, praying on their emotions and lack of any meaningful frame of reference for understanding public lands and the laws that govern management of those lands.
    I would recommend people study and research the issue before forming their opinion, but many people won’t take or have the time, and many others aren’t interested in the truth. And goodness knows, the truth is hard to find. So, it’s much easier to stick with ones’ dogmatic views, too distressing to find out one is being lied to and manipulated. Much more fun to attack elected leaders’ motivations and character, and spew hatred.

    The Bears Ears and the Grand Staircase land was and will remain federal land. Your conservative elected leaders are even willing to give you a new national park in the Escalante region, and willing to legislatively remove the discretion from land management agencies, required by the Federal Land Policy and Management Act to look for balance and multiple use, by declaring no leasing for 1.2 million acres of land in the former Bears Ears area. I’m certain that won’t be enough.

    We’ll now spend millions of dollars and a decade in litigation, and the Antiquities Act will be re-written. All because one side refused any form of compromise, and preferred to force their views and opinions on the rest of us. Shame on them. They need to look in the mirror and realize they have only themselves to blame for this debacle.

  24. Likes rockgremlin liked this post
  25. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    Some of my favorite reading is when people that don't believe in Jesus Christ, pick and choose certain attributes they pretend he had or didn't have, and assign him to a political party or ideology. They'll go up to the Googler and type in their favorite search terms "reasons why Jesus would be a ___________ today" and they pretend they have any clue about Jesus' personality (right after they tell the rest of us it's either foolish or offensive to discuss him).

    Yes, tell us why Jesus would have been a Liberal today, we've NEVER had the pleasure of hearing this.
    Oh I never said I didn't believe in Jesus, I quite like him. He had a simple message which wasn't confusing. I like Mohameed as well. What I don't like is how humanity has twist both their messages for their own means.

  26. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by twotimer View Post
    I hear ya...I just can't imagine that the folks that want to sterilize Christmas would line up behind the guy.

    So you see Jesus as an unabashed Capitalist?

  27. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by twotimer View Post
    Nah man, you've got it totally backwards...it's the liberals that would crucify his ass all over again. Especially the Jewish hierarchy that hate Israel.

    Jesus would be a Republican.
    PROBABLY FAKE NEWS.....

    "MIDLAND CITY, Ala. – The wife of embattled Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore drew ridicule online after she declared that "one of our attorneys is a Jew," and said some of their close friends are "Jewish and rabbis" while defending him against accusations that he doesn't care for blacks or Jews.Speaking at a campaign rally Monday night in Midland City, Alabama, Kayla Moore pointed out that her husband appointed the first black marshal to the state Supreme Court. She said they also have many friends who are black.
    But she raised the most eyebrows in her defense against claims that her husband, who's a Republican, is anti-Semitic.


    "Well, one of our attorneys is a Jew," Kayla Moore said, pausing for effect and nodding before adding, "We have very close friends who are Jewish and rabbis and we also fellowship with them."
    People immediately reacted online, some expressing anger but many others made jokes. They mocked her for citing an association with a professional whom she and her husband pay to do work for them as a way to prove they don't dislike Jewish people. Some said her comments echoed the "I have a black friend" comments often derisively attributed to people defending themselves against allegations of bigotry and racism.
    Kayla Moore's assertions were just the latest flashpoint for controversy in a campaign that's been rocked by accusations of sexual misconduct with teenage girls when her husband was in his 30s. He's running against Democrat Doug Jones in Tuesday's special election."

  28. #120
    A modern land run? Trump move opens Utah to mining claims under 1872 law


    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw federal protections from millions of acres of Utah wilderness will reopen much of the iconic terrain to gold, silver, copper, and uranium land claims under a Wild West-era mining law, according to federal officials.

    Starting at 6 a.m. on Feb. 2 – the moment Trump’s proclamation reducing the size of the Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments takes effect – private citizens and companies will be allowed to stake claims for hard rock mining in a process governed by the General Mining Law of 1872, according to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management.

    The process for staking a claim remains much as it did during the Gold Rush: A prospector hammers four poles into the ground corresponding to the four points of a parcel that can be as big as 20 acres, and attaches a written description of the claim onto one of them. A prospector then has 30 days to record the claim at the local BLM ....

    more
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1FK1MA



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