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Thread: Trump will visit Utah to change Bears Ears and Grand Staircase national monuments

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    most were relatively small by comparison (and i believe none were challenged in court). cutting by 1.1+ million and ~0.9 million, respectively, is massive.

    although zinke cites wilson's cutting of mt olympus nat'l mon. in 1915 down 300,000+ from teddy roosevelt's 600,000+ acres, as a result of FDR and truman, it's now a 922,000+ acre nat'l park.
    That the other 18 times were never challenged in court doesn't favor environmentalist as US laws often supports precedents.

    That the monuments being discussed are massive in size also doesn't bode well for the Antiquities Act as the act itself limits the monument "to the smallest area compatible".

    Environmentalist need to be careful with this case as it could just as easily end with the death of the Antiquities Act as we know it. No matter which side of the argument you fall on you have to agree the Antiquities Act is a massive amount of power for one person to wield without any procedural requirements and without any checks and balances.

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  3. #42
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    There will soon be legislation proposing the end or severely reeling in the antiquities act.

    It will go through congress and be signed by this President.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


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  4. #43
    Congressman Stewart just announced the proposed Escalante Canyons National Park.

    I hope the SUWA crowd is satisfied now.

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction View Post
    Congressman Stewart just announced the proposed Escalante Canyons National Park.

    I hope the SUWA crowd is satisfied now.
    You're gonna pin that on SUWA? When has SUWA asked for paved roads, brick shit houses, entrance fees, visitors centers, rangers, permits, quotas, etc. etc. etc?

    Looks like my joke about paving hole in the rock was spot on.

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  7. #45
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction View Post
    Congressman Stewart just announced the proposed Escalante Canyons National Park.

    I hope the SUWA crowd is satisfied now.
    You don't bilk people out of millions of dollars by them being satisfied.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

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  9. #46

  10. #47
    I've sure heard some crazy speculation and nightmare scenarios of what's going to happen to the land now.

    Photos of Wahweap Hoodoos, spreading fear and lies that these lands are in danger; I'm just waiting to see some more of those protest signs where the bulldozer is pushing over Delicate Arch. Those are awesome.

  11. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan View Post
    is that why there is a 2015 San Juan Energy Plan that overlaps BENM?
    @stefan -- Regardless of San Juan County's energy plan, there is very little evidence to prove that exploitable, marketable oil resources exist within the BENM boundaries. The value of possible resources that may result from additional prospecting and exploration is unknown and speculative at best.

    Exploratory gas fields mean just that -- exploratory. Meaning that nobody is currently drilling it, neither is anybody planning to drill it in the near future. There has been some interest in the past, but most companies know there isn't enough in the ground there to warrant a full on drilling program. If the BENM was such a hotbed for oil and mineral development, then mining companies would already be in there mining a long time ago.

    Just to re-iterate, here's an article from the Deseret News that basically echoes my original claim:

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...ears-Ears.html

    "Myth: Without national monument status, the Bears Ears region will be crisscrossed by coal mines, oil rigs and gas pipelines.

    Fact: Mineral resources beneath Bears Ears are scarce. There is no developable oil and gas. The region’s nonrenewable resources, including uranium near the Daneros Mine, were actually
    outside the expansive monument boundaries declared by Obama. The integrity of the Bears Ears landscape, long kept intact before the creation of the monument, will almost certainly remain intact after Trump’s announcement. And to ensure this going forward, the state of Utah is asking for congressional legislation that will exclude the region from mineral extraction."


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  13. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    @stefan -- Regardless of San Juan County's energy plan, there is very little evidence to prove that exploitable, marketable oil resources exist within the BENM boundaries. The value of possible resources that may result from additional prospecting and exploration is unknown and speculative at best.

    Exploratory gas fields mean just that -- exploratory. Meaning that nobody is currently drilling it, neither is anybody planning to drill it in the near future. There has been some interest in the past, but most companies know there isn't enough in the ground there to warrant a full on drilling program. If the BENM was such a hotbed for oil and mineral development, then mining companies would already be in there mining a long time ago.

    Just to re-iterate, here's an article from the Deseret News that basically echoes my original claim:

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...ears-Ears.html

    "Myth: Without national monument status, the Bears Ears region will be crisscrossed by coal mines, oil rigs and gas pipelines.

    Fact: Mineral resources beneath Bears Ears are scarce. There is no developable oil and gas. The region’s nonrenewable resources, including uranium near the Daneros Mine, were actually
    outside the expansive monument boundaries declared by Obama. The integrity of the Bears Ears landscape, long kept intact before the creation of the monument, will almost certainly remain intact after Trump’s announcement. And to ensure this going forward, the state of Utah is asking for congressional legislation that will exclude the region from mineral extraction."


    That's a great article. I'm sure that no one fighting for the massive land grab (I call it the way I see it) will admit the truth in any of the "facts".

    Concerning the massive coal deposit in the GSENM. When I was a wee lad my dad showed me where the opening of the mine was going to be and we all waited in anticipation of the mine opening along with the massive coal fired power plant on Nipple Bench. Neither one ever came to be. Robert Redford and the Sierra Club shut them both down. If it didn't happen then, it sure as hell wouldn't happen now, or in the future.

    Me as a wee lad overlooking Wahweap and the fish hatchery when it was first constructed...I'm on the right.

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  14. #50
    Interesting comment from a feller I know who lives down that way...

    "This is a classic tactic -- you totally under-resource an agency and then fault them for being ineffective and incompetent. If you want to deconstruct the administrative state, then defund them and blame them. The Bears Ears region has been one of the most undervalued (as measured by federal appropriations) areas of public land in the country esp considering the world class cultural resources and recreation found there. The monument brought hope of better management and adequate resources. We do (on-going tax legislation notwithstanding) have enough $ to take care of our federal lands, it's just that Congress refuses to provide it for political and tactical reasons."

    Interesting game of chess...

  15. #51
    So there must be some great oil reserves out there, right? That's what I keep hearing, the oil rigs will start driving into town. I had no idea you could just dig a hole anywhere and oil would come up. Might as well do it in a scenic part of the state though

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  17. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    So there must be some great oil reserves out there, right? That's what I keep hearing, the oil rigs will start driving into town. I had no idea you could just dig a hole anywhere and oil would come up. Might as well do it in a scenic part of the state though

    The Aneth oil fields just south of BENM are very rich. But they are far away from the proposed monument, and much of it is on the Navajo Nation lands.

    What I find interesting is that if people were so concerned about not drilling oil on Bears Ears, why did nobody speak up about it before? Why is it that all of a sudden when BENM becomes such a hot button politicized topic THEN people want to cry foul? And most of the time the folks who scream the loudest are one's that are the least informed.
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  19. #53
    Gotta get all that oil

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

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  21. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    So there must be some great oil reserves out there, right? That's what I keep hearing, the oil rigs will start driving into town. I had no idea you could just dig a hole anywhere and oil would come up. Might as well do it in a scenic part of the state though
    That's not how it usually works. Seldom is there large scale destruction of the wild-lands. Although there are exceptions, usually it is a slow encroachment of the wild-lands and they slowly disappear over time. It's usually a mineral extraction exploratory road here or there, or a new track, or extended track every once in a while rather than all of the sudden a giant strip mine.

    Right now oil prices are too low for most companies to want to drill in such areas (even though oil does exist in that area), so the threat isn't immediate but that could change. The threat is still real as a lot of us have seen the slow encroachment of former wild-lands. I can think of many examples.

    One possible compromise is slant drilling technology. Using such technology, you can actually drill under monuments and wilderness areas without disturbing the land within those areas. This seems the way to go and is a win-win situation. The disadvantage is that it is more expensive, but to me it would be worth it. We could still get the oil under the wild-lands, but leave the wild areas intact. Paying a little more for the oil would be a small price to pay in my opinion.

    What I find interesting is that if people were so concerned about not drilling oil on Bears Ears, why did nobody speak up about it before?
    Plenty of people have spoken up about it in recent years:

    http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...69&itype=CMSID
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  22. #55
    ^^^ Scott - Although there is nothing in that article in regards to BENM, I can see there has been concern for preserving that part of the state...and deservedly so. I've spent a considerable part of my life in the Mesa and the Swell, and I too would prefer to see it left alone.

    My take is that the threat of mineral and/or oil extraction in those areas is extremely low. I keep a finger on the pulse of mining in Utah at all times, and I'm unaware of any impending mining activity anywhere near these sensitive areas. That said, you can understand why I bristle when the industry that puts food in my kid's mouths is continually vilified for no other reason than to generate fear and panic in the otherwise ignorant masses.
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  23. #56
    Although I'm a wilderness loving, get away from it all backpacking kinda dude, I fall into the camp that isn't particularly worried about all those areas around the Blue's getting jacked up. I'd say if they turn it into a National Park or build up the infrastructure with more campgrounds and signs all over the place...then you can kiss what it has been goodbye.

    I must say though, that I'm certainly glad that it's mostly public land (federal or state matters not to me) because when I journeyed down to the Big Bend area of Texas in January I was dismayed that aside from the National Park and the adjacent State Park there is NO public land down there at all.

    All that beautiful, lonely desert outside the parks and you couldn't drive down any dirt road and throw down a sleeping bag.

    If the Feds or the State started selling off chunks of it, then you've got a REAL problem...IMO.
    "Unfortunately she's playing chicken with a dude that has no steering wheel"
    Lifted from Rockgremlin.

  24. #57
    ^^^THIS^^^

    I've spent the past 40 years in mining and energy and I can tell you there are no mines or drilling rigs heading for Bears Ears or Escalante.

    People need to understand their is a lot more money to be made by creating controversy over wilderness then there is to be pumped or dug out of Bears Ears.

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  26. #58
    For those still trying to exaggerate the "traces" of oil and coal in the area, doing all they can to bump it up to medium and partial amounts, trying to tell us all this is enough for corporations to take a blind chance to go strip the land... I was reminded of a good quote today;

    There's plenty of spare change that has fallen into the sewer but it's not worth sifting through.

    The initial emotional outcry in opposition to Trump was effective, but as time goes by, more facts emerge and it's getting more funny by the hour.

  27. #59
    I must say though, that I'm certainly glad that it's mostly public land (federal or state matters not to me) because when I journeyed down to the Big Bend area of Texas in January I was dismayed that aside from the National Park and the adjacent State Park there is NO public land down there at all.
    Other than the two national parks, basically the entire state of Texas is like that (there are small areas such as Padre Island or Big Thicket that are public land too). It's no wonder you see so many Texans out on the trail in places like Colorado and New Mexico.

    To give credit to an oil companies and oil men where credit is due, much of the land for Guadalupe Mountains National Park was donated by the Pratt's from the Humble Oil and Refining Company. Much of Grand Teton National Park was bought and donated by Rockefeller of Standard Oil.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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  29. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Much of Grand Teton National Park was bought and donated by Rockefeller of Standard Oil.
    I know nothing of this topic but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it was because there wasn't any oil in those lands worth extracting.

    Just like Bears Ears.

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