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Thread: Trump will visit Utah to change Bears Ears and Grand Staircase national monuments

  1. #181
    Accidentally released emails show Trump officials dismissed benefits of protected public land
    Washington Post

    In a quest to shrink national monuments last year, senior Interior Department officials dismissed evidence these public lands boosted tourism and spurred archaeological discoveries, according to documents the department released this month and retracted a day later.

    The thousands of pages of email correspondence chart how Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke and his aides instead tailored their survey of protected sites to emphasize the value of logging, ranching and energy development that would be unlocked if they were not designated as national monuments.

    Comments the department’s Freedom of Information Act officers made in the documents show they sought to keep some of the references out of public view because they were “revealing [the] strategy” behind the review.

    Presidents can establish national monuments in federal land or waters if they determine cultural, historical or natural resources are imperiled. In April, President Trump signed an executive order instructing Zinke to review 27 national monuments established over a period of 21 years, arguing his predecessors had overstepped their authority in placing these large sites off-limits to development.

    The new documents show that as Zinke conducted his four-month review, Interior officials rejected material that would justify keeping protections in place and sought out evidence that could buttress the case for unraveling them.

    On July 3, 2017, Bureau of Land Management official Nikki Moore wrote colleagues about five draft economic reports on sites under scrutiny, noting there is a paragraph within each on “our ability to estimate the value of energy and/or minerals forgone as a result of the designations.” That reference was redacted on the grounds it could “reveal strategy about the [national monument] review process.”

    These redactions came to light because Interior’s FOIA office sent out a batch of documents to journalists and advocacy groups on July 16 it later removed online.

    “It appears that we inadvertently posted an incorrect version of the files for the most recent National Monuments production,” officials wrote July 17. “We are requesting that if you downloaded the files already to please delete those versions.”

    .
    .

    The inadvertently released documents show department officials dismissed some evidence that contradicted the administration’s push to revise national monument designations, which are made under the 1906 American Antiquities Act. Estimates of increased tourism revenue, analyses that existing restrictions had not hurt fishing operators and agency reports that less vandalism occurred as a result of monument designations were all set aside.

    .
    .

    Department officials also redacted the BLM’s assessment that “it is unlikely” that the Obama administration’s establishment of the 1.3 million-acre Bears Ears National Monument “has impacted timber production” because those activities were permitted to continue.

    In response to questions about Grand Staircase-Escalante, BLM wrote that “less inventory” of cultural sites would have occurred without the 1996 monument designation, noting more than twice as many sites are now identified each year than before. “More vandalism would have occurred without Monument designation,” it states, noting four visitors centers were established to help protect the area.

    P. David Polly, the president of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology and a professor of sedimentary geology at Indiana University, said in an interview “there’s specific funding that comes” with a monument designation, which BLM itself identified in its submission as one of the reasons behind the “increase” in archaeological finds.

    Polly added the funding also accounts for why the number of paleontological finds in Grand Staircase-Escalante has risen from a few hundred before 1996 to “several thousand.”


    “This funding will disappear for the areas that are no longer in the monument,” he said.

    Agencies typically incorporate material submitted through public comments into their regulatory proposals, but documents released under the FOIA earlier this year show Bowman told colleagues in a May 2017 webcast “barring a surprise, there is no new information that’s going to be submitted” through the public comment process on the monuments review.

    Polly said the new documents show how Interior officials disregarded the material they gathered during the comment period. “They knew all of these things and went ahead and cut them anyway,” he said.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...375_story.html

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  3. #182

  4. #183
    Oh yeah...they discovered the ruins, alright.

    Let's take Coyote Gulch. When I first visited it in '92, they were still running cattle in there and the ruins up in the alcove were rough, but had some shape to them. Now they're just a pile of rocks. Last time I was there in '13, two chicks were up there trippin' on mushrooms.

    Somebody has dug holes at the alcove in Fold. Neon is getting gang-banged. I wonder if anyone has taken an extension ladder to get to the high ones a bit up the river?

    Making it a Nat. Monument just lit it up with a spotlight, IMO. Backcountry ruins don't hold up well when they've got a bunch of people all over them. Enough unethical ones picking the sites clean and leaving trash.

    Cat's outta the bag now.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

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  6. #184
    I'd like to think I get outdoors here and there, I get outdoors a couple of times a week, and travel out maybe every month. I never EVER heard anything about Bears Ears Monument, or where the hell it was until all of this "protection" came about. And ya know what? Neither did 95% of everybody else in Utah, and 99.99997% of everybody else in the country. But now they do.

    So now there are those who will never set foot in the area that are convinced the oil rigs are lined up down the highway with fat greasy guys driving in white sweaty tank tops with calendars featuring pin up girls hanging in the cabs of their trucks, eating subway sandwiches longer than this run on sentence.

    And then there are those who will visit the area ONLY because they want to virtue signal to all of social media that these lands are precious and they wouldn't be able to carry on with life when the Mormon Republicans come and knock down the hoodoos, although they've never had any interest in visiting prior to the politicization of the area.

    And then finally the very, VERY few that have visited the area years ago, just for the joy of the outdoors. You know, weirdos. Most of them know it was a huge mistake to bring attention to this area.

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  8. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    I'd like to think I get outdoors here and there, I get outdoors a couple of times a week, and travel out maybe every month. I never EVER heard anything about Bears Ears Monument, or where the hell it was until all of this "protection" came about. And ya know what? Neither did 95% of everybody else in Utah, and 99.99997% of everybody else in the country. But now they do.

    So now there are those who will never set foot in the area that are convinced the oil rigs are lined up down the highway with fat greasy guys driving in white sweaty tank tops with calendars featuring pin up girls hanging in the cabs of their trucks, eating subway sandwiches longer than this run on sentence.

    And then there are those who will visit the area ONLY because they want to virtue signal to all of social media that these lands are precious and they wouldn't be able to carry on with life when the Mormon Republicans come and knock down the hoodoos, although they've never had any interest in visiting prior to the politicization of the area.

    And then finally the very, VERY few that have visited the area years ago, just for the joy of the outdoors. You know, weirdos. Most of them know it was a huge mistake to bring attention to this area.
    Long well written post to call twotimer a wierdo... kudos.

  9. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    I'd like to think I get outdoors here and there, I get outdoors a couple of times a week, and travel out maybe every month. I never EVER heard anything about Bears Ears Monument, or where the hell it was until all of this "protection" came about. And ya know what? Neither did 95% of everybody else in Utah, and 99.99997% of everybody else in the country. But now they do.

    So now there are those who will never set foot in the area that are convinced the oil rigs are lined up down the highway with fat greasy guys driving in white sweaty tank tops with calendars featuring pin up girls hanging in the cabs of their trucks, eating subway sandwiches longer than this run on sentence.

    And then there are those who will visit the area ONLY because they want to virtue signal to all of social media that these lands are precious and they wouldn't be able to carry on with life when the Mormon Republicans come and knock down the hoodoos, although they've never had any interest in visiting prior to the politicization of the area.

    And then finally the very, VERY few that have visited the area years ago, just for the joy of the outdoors. You know, weirdos. Most of them know it was a huge mistake to bring attention to this area.
    Thank you for articulating everything I was just going to say. All of this nonsense about preserving and protecting the BENM is poppycock. If those who are supposedly trying to protect it would've kept their sanctimonious mouths shut it would've stayed off the radar for decades to come. As it is, the genie is now out of the bottle. And I'll give you ONE guess who let him out.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  11. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post

    So now there are those who will never set foot in the area that are convinced the oil rigs are lined up down the highway with fat greasy guys driving in white sweaty tank tops with calendars featuring pin up girls hanging in the cabs of their trucks, eating subway sandwiches longer than this run on sentence.

    And then there are those who will visit the area ONLY because they want to virtue signal to all of social media that these lands are precious and they wouldn't be able to carry on with life when the Mormon Republicans come and knock down the hoodoos, although they've never had any interest in visiting prior to the politicization of the area.
    so melodramatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    And then finally the very, VERY few that have visited the area years ago, just for the joy of the outdoors. You know, weirdos. Most of them know it was a huge mistake to bring attention to this area.
    the "very very few" ... the area in question has been visited for decades by more than "very few." it's not a secret, 'beech.

    if you're worried about "attention" i've always been partial to the Wilderness designation which generally doesn't show up on many maps.

  12. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    If those who are supposedly trying to protect it would've kept their sanctimonious mouths shut it would've stayed off the radar for decades to come. As it is, the genie is now out of the bottle. And I'll give you ONE guess who let him out.
    harold ickes?


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  13. #189
    ^^^Looks like parts of that proposed Escalante National Monument got converted to the present day Canyonlands + Dead Horse Point + Glen Canyon National Recreation Site.

    Interesting they would've proposed a national monument that extensive given that Uranium/Vanadium mining was still pretty prevalent in those areas back then.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  15. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    ^^^Looks like parts of that proposed Escalante National Monument got converted to the present day Canyonlands + Dead Horse Point + Glen Canyon National Recreation Site.
    also most of capitol reef and the escalante bit of GSENM.

    a little of the interesting early history of two utahns who originally pushed for something in the wayne county part of capitol reef is recounted at the following link on canyon tales

    The Fathers of Capitol Reef National Park
    http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/ca...aynewonderland

  16. #191
    Interesting article on how main stream media sold Bears Ears to the public.

    http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2...by-jim-stiles/

  17. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Interesting article on how main stream media sold Bears Ears to the public.

    http://www.canyoncountryzephyr.com/2...by-jim-stiles/

    CNN = lies on top of lies, on top of lies, on top of more lies. Trump was right to characterize CNN as #Fakenews.


    Pretty cool article. I really like the canyon country zephyr. From what I've seen it publishes pretty balanced content. It's not often that you see an ex-board member for SUWA completely lambast the liberal agenda.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  19. #193
    I'm going to roll on down there for a camping trip and toss cans out the window...Hayduke style.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  20. #194
    Federal agency issues proposals for downsized Utah monuments

    By Brady McCombs, Associated Press | Posted Aug 15th, 2018

    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — The U.S. government on Wednesday issued proposals for managing two national monuments in Utah that were significantly downsized by President Donald Trump last year, saying its preference for one of the sites would be the "least restrictive to energy and mining development."

    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46376675&ni...utah-monuments




    [sigh] Another ridiculous article about the atrocities of BENM reduction. Most of this article is recycled drivel we've all heard before countless times. The same old narrative -- "The mining and drilling companies are going to ravage our National monuments!"

    Before any of this nonsense gets out of control, I'm going to remind everyone that there is almost nothing of mineral value in the original BENM boundaries. Non economical quantities of oil exist is small quantities, and non economical quantities of Uranium exist just outside the boundaries, and there isn't a speck of coal anywhere in the region.

    Grand Staircase NM is a different story. There do exist millions of tons of good quality coal in the Grand Staircase National Monument. The vast coal reserves in GSNM could feasibly be exploited, and back in the mid 1990's Andalex was right on the verge of pulling the trigger on opening up a mine in the Kaiparowits to do just that. Even though Clinton's monument designation put a damper on their plans, they still could have gone forward with their plans to open the Smoky Hollow mine. They already damn near had permits in hand from the State of Utah. But they ended up not proceeding with their plans to mine -- mainly because they realized the economics weren't favorable. So if Andalex pulled out of that venture back in the 1990's - the height of coal's prominence - how much less attractive is that venture today? It's just not going to happen anytime soon.

    Or maybe ever.


    Last edited by rockgremlin; 08-16-2018 at 06:51 AM.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  22. #195
    When do we start drilling?!?

    Asking for a friend....

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  23. #196
    Speaking of coal in the Grand Staircase, here's a video of a natural coal burn. This occurs when a coal seam that is exposed on the surface is ignited by something. In many cases lightning can touch off a coal seam and get a fire started that will propagate underground, sometimes for long distances. Although somewhat shocking to behold, this is a completely natural occurrence, and can burn and smolder on its own beneath the surface for years.


    {sigh} What a waste, right? It's almost like Mother Nature is saying "Fine. You don't wanna burn my coal? I'll just burn it myself!"




    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  25. #197
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    Speaking of coal in the Grand Staircase, here's a video of a natural coal burn. This occurs when a coal seam that is exposed on the surface is ignited by something. In many cases lightning can touch off a coal seam and get a fire started that will propagate underground, sometimes for long distances. Although somewhat shocking to behold, this is a completely natural occurrence, and can burn and smolder on its own beneath the surface for years.


    {sigh} What a waste, right? It's almost like Mother Nature is saying "Fine. You don't wanna burn my coal? I'll just burn it myself!"






    How far away from HITR is that?


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  26. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post


    How far away from HITR is that?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I dunno, it's not my video. I wish I knew though because I'd love to take a trip out there to check this out in person.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  30. #200
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    Trump will visit Utah to change Bears Ears and Grand Staircase national monuments

    That’s great - thanks for the info!

    And interestingly, I didn’t know Zion had a coal seam fire. But apparently out of the 8 active coal seam fires, the Zionz National Bank Park one was the only one the Bureau of Reclamation was able to successfully extinguish.



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    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

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