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Thread: Mass Shooting in Las Vegas at Country Music Festival

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    CLAIM???
    MAY BE??

    You are certainly out of touch with reality and the BOR.
    No, I am not.

    I used the word claim when it comes to all individual rights of gun ownership is because both sides differ on the definition of "well regulated militia" and so has the Supreme Court throughout the years.

    In fact part of the reason Chicago no longer has the strictest gun laws in the country is that some of their laws were deemed unconstitutional. The definition and interpetation of "well regulated militia" however, has changed periodically in the Supreme Court throughout different times in history.

    As you and I have discussed earlier, I'm pretty neutral when it comes to gun control, but I can say that historically and currently that the Second Amendment's well regulated militia phrase has been interpreted differently among different people. If it hadn't, there would be no debate and no need for court decisions on the matter.

    I don't see people in droves, trying to leave this Country, only the opposite.
    People flock here because we are a great nation with many opportunities and freedoms.

    If we take 5 of the largest cities(all run by democrats, with strict gun control laws) out of the murder equation, where would that make us statistically, compared to other countries?
    It would still be higher here than in many other nations.

    Almost all big cities in the US have Democratic mayors. Some are safer than others.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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  3. #122
    The actual homicide facts complied by the FBI are very interesting to look at. A couple interesting items that jumped out at me:

    Almost twice as many people are killed each year by hammers and clubs then by all rifles combined, including the so called "assault" rifle.

    Why doesn't the anti gun lobby go after handguns, which account for the vast majority of firearm homicides? Because in 1832 the US Supreme Court ruled banning handguns was unconstitutional. This was reaffirmed in the 2008 case of District of Columbia v. Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment affirmed the rights of individuals to own firearms. The ruling also overturned a 32-year old ban on the sale or possession of handguns in the District of Columbia.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s..._2011-2015.xls

  4. #123
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    No, I am not.

    I used the word claim when it comes to all individual rights of gun ownership is because both sides differ on the definition of "well regulated militia" and so has the Supreme Court throughout the years.
    .
    Oh you mean like this Supreme court ruling?

    District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home, and that Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" violated this guarantee.
    Boycotting imlay canyon gear because I value access

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  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Oh you mean like this Supreme court ruling?

    District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home, and that Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" violated this guarantee.
    ^^^THIS^^^

    The 2nd Amendment in regards to militia is crystal clear after DC vs Heller.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Oh you mean like this Supreme court ruling?

    District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home, and that Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" violated this guarantee.
    Yes, that is one of them and a good example. If there was never any question, all such court decisions would always be unanimous.

    Also see McDonald vs Chicago which is related to DC vs Heller and what I was referring to about some of Chicago's gun laws being deemed unconstitutional in 2010.

    I'm pretty sure that we are on the same page on this.

    That wasn't my argument though. My argument was really about whether or not more guns make us safer and where to draw the line.

    I'm sure there will be some rulings on bump stocks that we'll all be watching in the upcoming months or years.

    Also, although I am pretty neutral on gun issues, let me interject some personal thoughts.

    Would I be nervous if you or Shane had a basement full of semi auto firearms? No, I am not concerned, even in the least.

    Am I nervous that my sister's mentally ill husband (separated) and who has threatened to gun down the family many times still has access to all kinds of firearms? I admit that I am.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    ^^^THIS^^^

    The 2nd Amendment in regards to militia is crystal clear after DC vs Heller.
    What's clear is that law is fluid:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ourt_decisions

  8. #127
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Yes, that is one of them and a good example. If there was never any question, all such decisions would always be unanimous.
    That may be the sole reason "our" side won--Supreme court picks.

    Now on to a couple more...
    Boycotting imlay canyon gear because I value access

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    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!


    Who Is John Galt?

  9. #128
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    ,,,
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Boycotting imlay canyon gear because I value access

    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!


    Who Is John Galt?

  10. #129
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Natural rights are not fluid!

    only leftist looking for progress are fluid!
    Boycotting imlay canyon gear because I value access

    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!


    Who Is John Galt?

  11. #130
    The timeline of the shooter is undergoing some major revisions. It now appears the hotel security guard was shot 6 minutes before the gunman opened fire on the crowd. The security guard shooting also appears to be what messed up the shooters escape plans.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/09...olice-say.html

  12. #131
    The NRA is taking a massive beating from it's membership for suggesting they might be open to outlawing bump stocks.

    The big problem is the minute the NRA suggested they were open to the subject the left started immediately trying to piggyback additional anti gun laws into the legislation being discussed. The left has basically cut their own throats on this deal as the NRA will probably be force to resume their hardline stance of no more gun laws.

  13. #132
    The fact remains that none of the gun control measures pushed by anti-gun politicians would have stopped the recent high-profile shootings. There is no point in pushing through legislation that curtails Americans’ constitutional rights if it has no meaningful impact and doesn’t actually solve a problem.



  14. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    The fact remains that none of the gun control measures pushed by anti-gun politicians would have stopped the recent high-profile shootings. There is no point in pushing through legislation that curtails Americans’ constitutional rights if it has no meaningful impact and doesn’t actually solve a problem.
    Does make me wonder...what if?

    What if the Federal Assault Weapons Ban hadn't expired?

  15. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Does make me wonder...what if?

    What if the Federal Assault Weapons Ban hadn't expired?
    Perhaps a slighy different weapons combination but same results. If nothing else this incident with bump stocks should show you that weapons designers are geniuses at engineering their way around the silly rules that were in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. By the sunset of the Assault Weapons Ban many outlawed items had a simple work around.

  16. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Perhaps a slighy different weapons combination but same results. If nothing else this incident with bump stocks should show you that weapons designers are geniuses at engineering their way around the silly rules that were in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. By the sunset of the Assault Weapons Ban many outlawed items had a simple work around.
    Hmm. Some items. But, my memory was that semi auto black rifle and AK rigs were severely curtailed, and, if you owned some of that stuff...their value was pretty high. High cap mags were $$$pendy.

    I think I recall hi cap glock and HK mags hitting 90 bucks or more (if you could find them). Ditto AR and AK mags.

    I remember thinking I was glad to have a couple of AR's. Watched the prices sky rocket. Same with my Mini-14.

    Prices are now rock bottom.

    Supply and demand I suppose.

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    I know, from attending guns shows pre, during, and post ban...the hardware and prices have changed significantly. Cheap black rifles are boring to me (bunches of junk)...maybe I'll stick to the collector shows...

  17. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Hmm. Some items. But, my memory was that semi auto black rifle and AK rigs were severely curtailed, and, if you owned some of that stuff...their value was pretty high. High cap mags were $$$pendy.

    I think I recall hi cap glock and HK mags hitting 90 bucks or more (if you could find them). Ditto AR and AK mags.

    I remember thinking I was glad to have a couple of AR's. Watched the prices sky rocket. Same with my Mini-14.

    Prices are now rock bottom.

    Supply and demand I suppose.

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    I know, from attending guns shows pre, during, and post ban...the hardware and prices have changed significantly. Cheap black rifles are boring to me (bunches of junk)...maybe I'll stick to the collector shows...
    After Sandy Hooks you could sell any gun at just about any price, it wasn't just black rifles that had ridiculous price tags. Pistols were going crazy. I put a couple 9mm on gunbroker and they sold for 6 times what they were worth. Now it's just the opposite, you can't hardly give guns away as anyone who was interested over stocked and the market over produced. People are still buying guns, but they are buying them a fire sale prices.

    And I don't read much into your charts as firearm homicides have been in serious decline since the early 70's and they continue to decline.

  18. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    And I don't read much into your charts as firearm homicides have been in serious decline since the early 70's and they continue to decline.
    I think there's been a bump in the last year or two. Data is hard to come by, though.

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    Not saying the ban in 1994 caused the big decline...but...what did?

    Raw and accurate data hard to come by. By design? Seems. We apparently just really don't want to know...

    Cause and effect, causation v correlation...ect.

    I'd just like to see some raw data. I can do the math.

    There's these high profile bumps in the data, then, back to fairly sleepy. This Vegas thing was a big bump. That's a serious amount of casualties attributed to a single shooter. Not possible without high cap mags and semi auto rifles. Both of which are saturated in the market place.

    Would have been interesting to save some numbers and prices off the eBay of the gun sales in the US...gunbroker.

    Currently there are over 4500 semi auto AR-15 rifles for sale and the prices are fairly low. Would have been interesting to compare that to, say, a search in 2002 or so.

    Genie is out of the bottle....that's for darn sure.

    So...if the gummint had to budget for a buyback...say, 1000 a pop. 110,000,000 rifles. 111 billion. US military budget from 2017 is 824.6 billion? Or thereabouts. 4 trillion dollar budge for 2018? What's that? 3% of our budget? Hmm. Interesting.

    Wonder what percentage of Australia's budget their buy back was?

  19. #138
    Here's a couple of charts that might be attributable to the sunset of the AWB:

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  20. #139
    'Assault Rifles' are used in less than 1% of all homicides... You are chasing the liberal dog whistle with this one.

    Now if you want to go after some low hanging fruit how about 64% of all homicides are committed be handguns. That's the guns the left should be working to get banned. Except for that silly 2nd amendment that keeps getting in the way and the simple fact that the Supreme Court has twice ruled that handguns are legal and can't be banned.

  21. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    The NRA is taking a massive beating from it's membership for suggesting they might be open to outlawing bump stocks.

    The big problem is the minute the NRA suggested they were open to the subject the left started immediately trying to piggyback additional anti gun laws into the legislation being discussed. The left has basically cut their own throats on this deal as the NRA will probably be force to resume their hardline stance of no more gun laws.
    I called in... The NRA has come out against the currently proposed overreaching legislation attempting to ban bump stocks.

    http://thehill.com/regulation/355183...ng-bump-stocks

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