Accident in Birch Hollow.

[ratagonia]

The canyoneering groups on Facebook always tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom

[Scott P]

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom

Yes, I fully admit that I am biased against those who tell complete noobs that they should use complicated anchoring systems in dry canyons and that they should never use simpler and safer methods.

[twotimer]

A few years back I went to the Leps and the Hogs with a buddy and some folks I didn't know. It was a lead by a gal who just did a canyoneering class and she certainly paid attention there, because she set up everything single line and then rapped last with that pull rope feeding out of the sack on her hip...all nice and purdy.

She set everything up proper, It looked good...but I thought just doing it doubled on most of them would have been just as quick and safer, too.

The point of my post with the picture was that everyone has their way of doing things, It's what we're comfortable with, I guess. But it just seems to me that whenever you tie two ropes together the chance of someone or something getting jacked up is much higher. People just need to double check their shit more.

[Iceaxe]

Really?

There might be a bit of observer bias on that observation.

Tom

I have two daughters that are very talented canyoneers with over 15 years of experiance, but few outside of a tight circle really know who they are because they don't participate in the forums, meet up, facebook, yada, yada.... I bet at least 80% of the time when they are rigging a DRT rappel and a group walks up behind them some good samaritan will come up and offer to help them rig the rappel "correctly" using SRT.

Now it could possibly just be some guys way of trying to hit on the hot blonde chick, but mostly it's just some asshat figuring the hot blonde chick doesn't know shit about canyoneering.

[ratagonia]

The canyoneering groups on Facebook always tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

Geez, Tom...you sensitive about something?

I'll help...

"This reinforces 3 important things taught by 2 of my great instructors : Rich Carlson & Klaus Gerhart
1) A blocked single strand rappel is way safer than "Toss & Go". RIch always reiterated this mantra."


Whew...I'd hate to see Scott get his poor little feelings hurt.

[TommyBoy]

Yes, I fully admit that I am biased against those who tell complete noobs that they should use complicated anchoring systems in dry canyons and that they should never use simpler and safer methods.

Explain to me how SRT is complicated? Yes there is more to it than toss n go, but really you feed the rope through the rapide, make sure the end is on the ground, block it (either knot or biner), and keep the tail up top till LAMAR so it's obvious which side to clip in to. This isn't rocket science, yes there's more going on than DRT, and yes you need to be careful, check each other as you're hooking in, double check the setup, but it's not a "complicated" system. Yes you can screw it up and if you do it can kill you, but the same can be said for DRT.

I'm not saying you "should" use SRT or that it's somehow "better", just that while it does have an extra component involved it's not a super complicated system that is hard to check.

[Scott P]

Maybe I misunderstand your use of the English Language.

Technically, you are saying that EVERY POST on "The canyoneering groups on Facebook" tell everyone (etc. etc.).

Now I know that you do not mean that EVERY POST you have ever seen on one of these FB groups is about this. So, I will not interpret your statement literally.

But please, send me a link to a SINGLE post on a FB group that does what you say.

However, there is a big difference between EVERY post and a SINGLE post. But please, come up with a SINGLE post, then we can count posts on that group. Somehow I suspect that less than 10% of posts on the CRAZIEST, MOST RIGOROUS canyoneering FB group "tell everyone, especially complete noobs how dangerous and stupid DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is."

So please, come up with the goods, or apologize for LYING. Which we can politely call Exaggerating, if you want me to be politically correct, and not hurt your poor little feelings.

Tom

Tom, did you see Coast Mountain's posts on the recent thread before they were deleted? The words moron and stupid were specifically said about the post I made about DRT. That's even worse than anything I implied.

Most people are more civil, but there are several people on those forums who say that SRT rappels should always be used by noobs. Do you want names? I will be happy to PM you with them. I suspect that since you already follow that forum, you already know who they are. In fact some of them have posted in the recent thread and you can see the posts for yourself.

As far as my post above, no not every single post is against using DRT.

By saying always, I mean every single thread I have seen on the topic, not every single post.

If I say that there will always be crime in the USA, that doesn't mean that every single person is a criminal and that every single person is committing a crime 100% of the time. Perhaps I could rephrase my post above to say that in every thread I have seen on the subject, there will always be someone telling noobs to use SRT, but I suspect that you already know what I meant.

The above is why I stopped following such forums, only today posting a new thread to reiterate this. Personally I think the latest thread I created only strengthens what I said above:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/564433...94779387245926

With the exception of Tom, does anyone else who reads through the linked thread come up with a different conclusion from what I said above? To me the thread speaks for itself.

And I still hold the same viewpoint as to which is safer for noobs in dry canyons.

PS Tom, what the he**? It seems you are taking a lot of issue with a lot of what I say lately. My feelings aren't hurt, but did I piss you off or something? If so, feel free to PM me.

[Brian in SLC]

Explain to me how SRT is complicated?

Ok...I'll try...

Yes there is more to it than toss n go, but really you feed the rope through the rapide, make sure the end is on the ground, block it (either knot or biner), and keep the tail up top till LAMAR so it's obvious which side to clip in to. This isn't rocket science, yes there's more going on than DRT, and yes you need to be careful, check each other as you're hooking in, double check the setup, but it's not a "complicated" system. Yes you can screw it up and if you do it can kill you, but the same can be said for DRT.

I'm not saying you "should" use SRT or that it's somehow "better", just that while it does have an extra component involved it's not a super complicated system that is hard to check.

Does that help you understand? Ha ha.

Both methods of rappelling can be screwed up, to be sure.

I try to understand why folks like or would use one over the other. I've never understood the desire for a carabiner or knot block and single strand rappel that isn't rigged as a contingency anchor. Or, why, on a short drop with a rope that's more than twice the length of the drop, not in water flow, that folks wouldn't just "toss-n-go". Sure makes pulling the rope down easier...(nothing to get stuck).

Closest call I've ever had rappelling was on double strand, when, I only had one strand clipped into my locking carabiner but both strands through the ATC. Had I let go of the anchor when I leaned back...probably not survivable.

I think if you diligently double check your set up, weighting the rappel device and actually go on rappel to check that everything's "ok", prior to unclipping from the anchor, then in either double or single strand scenarios, you should flush out any issues with at least being "on rappel" correctly.

[Scott P]

My post (which was obviously made to prove the point above):

I have a serious concern. In the past I have seen a lot of posts telling those new to canyoneering that they shouldn't be using double rope rappels and that single rappels are safer, even in dry canyons.

This is simply not true and is bad practice. The simplest and safest methods should be learned first. Single rope rappels are advanced techniques and should be reserved for the more experienced.

The risk factor is much greater with single rope rappels because they are much more complicated. The risk of getting stuck on rappel is much less than that of screwing up a single line rappel.

Although it is extremely rare, if you really are concerned about someone getting stuck, then the best practice is simply to carry a second rope.

The above does not say that single line rappels don't have there place. It is an important skill that is useful in class C canyons and an advanced technique that is very useful if a rope gets damaged in a canyon. Still, the basics should be leaned first.

-A concerned canyoneer


Thanks!


Cut and paste of some random responses (minus the ones mentioning moron and stupid from Coast Mountains):

Many years on only DRT = skilled; sounds like an oxymoron. (For the record I didn't say I have only done DRT).

I need to spend less time on Facebook.I am hoping the OP is joking.

You just can't make a Blanket Statement like that and have people that will agree with you.

Scott Patterson, are you saying new people to canyoneering should know how to convert to a lower, convert to a haul or perform a pick-off with that extra rope? Your OP said new canyoneers.

Even if someone is just beginning, I think they should learn good techniques - hopefully they are going out with someone that has some experience too. IMHO double rope rappels should be used sparingly (Very civil post though).

To me, I think it's pretty clear as to what is being said here. I stand by my statement.

[ratagonia]

By saying always, I mean every single thread I have seen on the topic, not every single post.

It would be easier to discuss things with you if you said what you meant, rather than something else.

Tom

[Scott P]

It would be easier to discuss things with you if you said what you meant, rather than something else.

Tom

OK, Tom, fair enough, but I think my point still stands. I will edit it to be better.

How is this? I edited the original post.

On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

[ratagonia]

OK, Tom, fair enough, but I think my point still stands. I will edit it to be better.

How is this? I edited the original post.

On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.

That is so far from your original claim as to be practically meaningless.

But let me take the bait anyway.

That is not what I see. What I see is that many posts suggest that learning SRT in addition to DRT is beneficial to one's canyoneering education. Once in a while I see the meanness you imply is there all the time, but only once in a while. Most of the people I canyoneer with use a mix of SRT and DRT, and recognize that there are appropriate places to apply each.

If anything, what *I* see is a ranting by some any time an accident comes up about HOW AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS SRT techniques are.

You hear and see one thing, I hear and see the opposite.

Selective hearing.

Tom

[Scott P]

What I see is that many posts suggest that learning SRT in addition to DRT is beneficial to one's canyoneering education. Once in a while I see the meanness you imply is there all the time, but only once in a while. Most of the people I canyoneer with use a mix of SRT and DRT, and recognize that there are appropriate places to apply each

I would agree with the above concept that both methods should be learned, but some post are like that and many aren't. I have provided some examples and that thread was even started after I made the original post. I already knew what would happen when I made that post.

[Scott P]

If anything, what *I* see is a ranting by some any time an accident comes up about HOW AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS SRT techniques are.

You hear and see one thing, I hear and see the opposite.

I have also seen and heard those rants as well. I just happen to agree with them on occasion, even if they aren't always as civil as I would like. The issue isn't which side is meaner, but which side has is safer.

So, I do see the rants you speak of.

I just don't think that SRT rappels are always (or even generally) safer for noobs in dry canyons. It would take a lot more than forum posts to convince me otherwise. Even though I respect you, and will admit that you are more knowlegable than me in many aspects of canyoneering, I still don't think you could convince me of the above.

[nkanarik]

[Scott P]

I was thinking of taking some noobs down U-Turn Canyon soon.

Here is a recent anchor photo in U-Turn:



Should I use this one, or one of the others?:





OK, I do know that no one was telling anyone they have to use these methods, but I guess I just can't see making things complicated. I just prefer simple; that's all.

[TommyBoy]

@Brian in SLC thanks for nothing, the whole point of my post is that SRT ISN"T complicated so just quoting me with some highlights does nothing. The only really extra step is adding the block for SRT vs DRT since you have to do step one for DRT as well in fact you have to do it twice to make sure both ends are on the ground. Step three is slightly different for DRT vs SRT but it's still there making sure you hook in properly, and step 4 is only a concern for LAMAR who should be a skilled canyoneer and extra careful.

[ratagonia]

I was thinking of taking some noobs down U-Turn Canyon soon.

Here is a recent anchor photo in U-Turn:



Should I use this one, or one of the others?:





OK, I do know that no one was telling anyone they have to use these methods, but I guess I just can't see making things complicated. I just prefer simple; that's all.

You are cherry-picking a few pictures from the Canyon Rigging website. If you read those threads, you will see that the dominant theme on those posts was "what the heck you doing? so so complicated! Don't do this!"

----

Plus, what does this have to do with your claim?

Your claim has been reduced to "once in a while, someone implies that someone else is stupid for not using Single Rope Technique". People showing these whacky riggings were not implying that anyone who does not use these whacky riggings is stupid.

[Scott P]

You are cherry-picking a few pictures from the Canyon Rigging website. If you read those threads, you will see that the dominant theme on those posts was "what the heck you doing? so so complicated! Don't do this!

OK, I agree. Don't do this.