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Thread: Accident in Birch Hollow.

  1. #21

  2. Likes rockgremlin, jman, twotimer liked this post
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  4. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception.
    What does "standard technique" mean?

  5. #23
    If you have to ask you are probably part of the problem.

  6. #24
    LOVE IT, HANK!...Actually, you could push me all the way back to the original Batman series.

    Happy Days choked long before Fonzie jumped the shark...when he switched from the blue jacket to the black one and became some kind of guru is when it went downhill. IMO.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

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  8. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    If you have to ask you are probably part of the problem.
    Too many (most?) of these discussions derail quickly due to initial assumptions about what the other person is saying. As I am not aware of any "standard technique," I think it's a fair question to clarify what you are trying to say. Unless you don't want to discuss, which is fine...

    hank

  9. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by twotimer View Post
    Happy Days choked long before Fonzie jumped the shark...when he switched from the blue jacket to the black one and became some kind of guru is when it went downhill. IMO.
    Yep. Along similar lines, the Flintstones died when that little green alien guy started making regular appearances...well, prolly before that.

  10. #27

  11. #28
    ^^^YUP^^^

    It's all shits and giggles until the next person dies.

  12. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    ^^^YUP^^^

    It's all shits and giggles until the next person dies.
    Oh, just tryin' to derail two dudes from a snarky smackdown. Y'know, break things up a bit.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  13. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), and SRT does nothing to simplify the system. But since the "Great Ones" (tm) are advocating the system it will remain the standard and more people will continue to die because of it.
    I couldn't agree more. I double strand most of the time and single strand when it makes sense. I hate going with "pros" who have been canyoneering 1-7 years, and they keep telling me all the things I'm doing wrong when I double strand. And on at least two separate occasions, these "pros" have gotten my rope stuck by not unclipping the carabiner from the anchor on a single strand system they set up. And guess who has no idea how to ascend the rope to undo their mistake?

    Long rant short, the "Great Ones" (tm) make single strand (and many other techniques) a matter of dogma, and no one is willing to do anything different. Super frustrating, and, at times, dangerous.

  14. #31

  15. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    What does "standard technique" mean?
    I just figured most were smart enough to figure it out on their own... But for the intellectually challenged here ya go....

    It means if I sit at the first rappel of ***insert name of any popular CP canyon here*** it will be the rappel method used most often.

    Or as I said, if you have to ask consider yourself part of the problem. I mean what the hell, you're only killing a couple of people a year when they f**k up SRT.

  16. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    @qedcook
    Would you mind explaining what you mean by "standard technique"?
    Obviously SRT is a tool and cannot in itself be the cause of an accident.
    I'm curious about who the "pros" are in your post on SRT/DRT. Care to share?
    Like Iceaxe said, it's what people use most commonly. By standard technique, I mean, when I lead a canyon and someone else who's been trained in canyoneering inspects the first rap I set up, they look at me and ask why I'm not single stranding. I've never not had this happen. And it's happened a lot.

    By the pros, I mean that all these people that always insist on me using single strand (or at least comment on how unsafe I am with double strand) always mention a canyoneering training course they took from so-and-so or a canyoneering training trip they went on with so-and-so.

    Now that I've defined those two things, I think I'm done defining stuff. Most people think I'm usually pretty clear on what I'm saying.

    Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.

  17. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.
    Climbers have given thought to single strand quite awhile ago...(1872 reference below):

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    Most rope techniques for climbing developed in Europe. Seems like, historically, folks climbing in Europe would use a double rope system for especially harder routes. Makes sense then, that, when rappelling, they'd rappel on both strands of rope.

    There's been a few high profile accidents of climbers using SRT and having that system fail them (recent Yosemite rappel gone wrong comes to mind):

    http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/th...822#msg1165822

    I think a few climbers have given some thought to not using tag lines due to a few known accidents out there.

    Also, climbing anchors aren't necessarily configured for single rope rappelling:

    Name:  Arco anchor.jpg
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    I started climbing in the early 80's, and, my dad was a climber in the 50's. What was taught back then, whether a dulfersitz or figure eight or whatever technique, was always on doubled ropes.

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  19. #35
    Climbers use and talk about single strand, but not nearly as often as they use or talk about double strand.

  20. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Like Iceaxe said, it's what people use most commonly. By standard technique, I mean, when I lead a canyon and someone else who's been trained in canyoneering inspects the first rap I set up, they look at me and ask why I'm not single stranding. I've never not had this happen. And it's happened a lot.

    By the pros, I mean that all these people that always insist on me using single strand (or at least comment on how unsafe I am with double strand) always mention a canyoneering training course they took from so-and-so or a canyoneering training trip they went on with so-and-so.

    Now that I've defined those two things, I think I'm done defining stuff. Most people think I'm usually pretty clear on what I'm saying.

    Now I've got a question. Why doesn't the climbing community (which is more established than the canyoneering community) use (or even mention) single strand rappelling more often? I would say because it's more error prone and thus less safe. And the climbing community has figured that out. Most rappels in climbing are analogous to most rappels in canyoneering, so I won't be buying any claim that the rappelling in one sport is so different than the other sport.
    @qedcook, thanks for clarifying what you mean by "standard technique" - that was helpful. I haven't seen the same thing out there, so your perspective is enlightening. Might be interesting to start a project of gathering field data on SRT usage. For example, spend a day hanging out at every Pine Creek (ZION) rap to observe what folks are doing. Cameras would be even better. Get some real numbers. Hmm....

    Also useful to hear what you mean by "the pros" To me, an "pro" is either a literal professional (e.g. an experienced guide) or perhaps simply a competent person (e.g. Bo Beck). There are other possibilities, nuances, etc. Whereas to you, a pro might simply be a random canyoneer being preachy about your choice of technique? Or by "all these people" did you have specific individuals in mind? If so, call 'em out!

    re: your question about the climbing community and SRT. As @Brian in SLC pointed out, climbers do use SRT. In fact, some climbers are using canyon-style SRT when traveling ultra-light. Cavers are doing this, too. Petzl has promoted a variation of the Reepschnur technique (essentially a backed-up knot block) since the launch of the Grigri belay device in 1991.

    https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Be...-a-single-rope

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  22. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Climbers use and talk about single strand, but not nearly as often as they use or talk about double strand.
    Yes. Double strand raps might be considered Standard Technique® in the climbing world. And there are reasons for that. Brian already pointed out the traditional use of half or twin ropes in European climbing. There are other reasons. Note that "double rope technique" in climbing bears no relation to DRT in canyoneering. Apples and Oranges (more like Apples and Durian). Canyoneers are mostly going down. Climbers are going up, and then down, using ropes for descending only when necessary. Climbers don't like to rappel (generally, culturally). Climbers are not doing 300' raps in a single pitch, or rope length. The list goes on. In short, there are fewer reasons to use SRT in climbing. DRT works fine due to shorter pitch lengths, lack of water hazards, etc. SRT is mostly used in climbing when going ultra-light. This ultra-light approach also exists in canyoneering, but it is one of the weaker reasons to choose SRT, in general. YMMV.

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  24. #38
    I Do not usually rappel single strand when climbing, but have had to a couple of times on long routes when one of two ropes became damaged.
    Whether or not you prefer SRT it can be VERY useful in scenarios where ropes get compromised.

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  26. #39
    SRT is a great tool and is the only way to roll in class C canyons. It just shouldn't be the "standard" technique for 90% of the Colorado Plateau canyons unless you have a legitimate reason.

  27. #40
    On every single thread I have seen on the topic, some of the canyoneering groups on Facebook tell people, especially complete noobs how dangerous DRT is and how much safer SRT rappel is. That is part of the problem.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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