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Thread: Accident in Birch Hollow.

  1. #1

    Accident in Birch Hollow.

    http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/arc.../#.WaQOQy9MHqD

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  3. #2
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    ...rapping on the pull-cord.

    And a guide, nonetheless.

    Hopefully he recovers well!


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    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    ...rapping on the pull-cord.
    Is the above based on

    “It sounds like he must have hooked into the wrong rope,” Alldredge said. “So when he went to go over, it wasn’t on the one that was being held, and he more or less fell straight down.”

    ?

  5. #4
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Is the above based on

    “It sounds like he must have hooked into the wrong rope,” Alldredge said. “So when he went to go over, it wasn’t on the one that was being held, and he more or less fell straight down.”

    ?
    Indeed. It sounds like that’s what it was, but I may be wrong.

    Hopefully SAR will have a blurb on their page about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
    ●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

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  7. #5
    From my experience Zion Ponderosa "guide" means a college kid that has done the canyon a couple times before but has no formal training.

    It will be interesting to understand the cause of the accident if more/accurate information is ever released.

  8. #6
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    From my experience Zion Ponderosa "guide" means a college kid that has done the canyon a couple times before but has no formal training.

    It will be interesting to understand the cause of the accident if more/accurate information is ever released.
    "college"? If you're lucky!!!

  9. Likes rockgremlin, Iceaxe liked this post
  10. #7
    Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?
    Sounds like the victim was using single line technique on double lines.... having a toolbox full of tools doesn't help if ya don't know which tool to use.

  13. #9
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?
    debate?

  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Is this a good time to debate single line vs. double line again?
    It won't be good again until 2047 - unless human cloning perfected before then.

  15. #11
    I agree with ratagonia that there is nothing to debate... but probably not for the same reason. Again and again these injuries and deaths occur when the single line rappel is employed. Admittedly I too use it extensively. But with all due respect to the long time canyoneers who competently descend Zion's moderate canyons and Utahs more technically advanced canyons, most people (read: most canyoneers) have no business using SLR techniques. We have seen guides and rangers, hot doggers and average Joes, fail to negotiate this rather simple act.

    At some point it must be recognized that the technique should not be used by most people.

    I find it interesting that helmet-less canyoneers are called out immediately anytime a posted pic appears in these blogs. Yet expert canyoneers are beyond reluctant to acknowledge, much less are they willing to warn those engaging in the sport, that SLR is linked with more severe consequences than any other aspect of canyoneering... with the only possible exception being flash floods. Nor do they educate and re-educate at each unfortunate opportunity.

    I don't read all of the threads, so I may be mis-speaking, but I'd like to see you who have already commented on this issue (often dismissively) make a bigger effort to promote SLR safety (and instruction ??) as you do regarding assessing weather conditions and wearing helmets.

    It seems to me that the leaders of this sport do a good job of monitoring helmet use, for instance. I never see anyone write that there are alternatives to helmet use or that helmets shouldn't be used. So why is SLR a sacred cow?

    So if the community of canyoneers only blames incompetent people in their SLR failures and does nothing to address this issue, then does the community (you know who you are) not have some level of culpability?

    So hopefully no one is offended, but I think a little help here from those that have weight in their words is welcomed. It might just prevent some injuries.

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  17. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SlickRock View Post
    most people (read: most canyoneers) have no business using SLR techniques.
    To your point that SRT is inherently more dangerous than DRT, much has been said about that and I won't re-write that book here. Volumes of info on this are available for the interested; here's a good starting point:

    http://canyon collective.com/threads/single-strand-vs-double-strand-rappel.20177/#post-87963

    There are very few SRT accidents involving a competent person who is mentally and physically uncompromised. Most SRT accidents involve a person getting on the wrong (pull) side of the rope, when the pull rope is unsecured. If I read your post correctly, you are asking why does the expert canyon community not do more to deter incompetent people from using SRT due to the — perceived — greater chance of error inherent in SRT? Is that correct?

  18. #13
    I don't consider myself an expert, but for what it's worth...when traveling with family / inexperienced folks...
    • 1st man down:usually me:I prefer SRT, where I set it up with
      1. releasable figure 8 contegency
      2. rest of the rope / separate rope as backup belay line

    • Middle of the group:
      • Either same set up as above, or...
      • Same set up as above minus #2, but with fireman belay


    • Last man down (usually me) - DRT with fireman belay (I'm often the heaviest in the group, which works well for DRT :))

  19. #14
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    As in almost every canyoneering accident I have been able to track down, the victim had toast with jam for breakfast in the morning. We KNOW that toast with jam has a very high glycemic index, and this undoubtedly led directly to the errors made.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  21. #15
    Both of these recent incidents involved the single line rappel - which adds several additional components (biner block, unsecured pull line, and potentially fast descents) that you don't have with standard double rope rappels. Rappelling already has dangerous elements- ledge exposure, sound anchors or not, rapping off the rope ends, knots for linking ropes, etc. SLR just increases chances for error and we're seeing that manifested here. The occasional canyoneer should not employ SLR - my opinion.

    I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used. I'm not convinced the same can be said of the single line rappel.

    I don't think mr jones is adding valuable contribution to the conversation by arguing that there is only some correlation to SLR in these cases and not a direct link to these accidents - stop deflecting.

    Clearly people are f-ing this technique up. Some are dying. Now, if you feel comfortable with this, then ok. Post the accident report, beat up on the victim and do not offer up your counsel and guidance.

    All I'm respectfully asking for... is that the leadership as represented largely in those already posting on this thread... instead of convicting post-accident victims as incompetent, is to continue to educate, instruct, warn and help future canyoneers not make the same mistake. There is weigh to your words... use it well.

    All of you guys (moon, jman, iceaxe) are respected for your views - especially mr jones. But you must take responsibility to reiterate and re-educate as the situation demands. This is one of those times. There are new people coming into this sport every day. Help them.

  22. #16
    Slickrock,

    I was going thru Mystery solo a few years ago when I came upon you and your group. I was employing the biner block (for the first time, learning it because "everybody seems to be doing it") and we had a short conversation about it. You asked "Why" and I really didn't have an answer.

    What you said made complete sense to me and I haven't bothered with it since.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  23. #17
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickRock View Post
    Both of these recent incidents involved the single line rappel - which adds several additional components (biner block, unsecured pull line, and potentially fast descents) that you don't have with standard double rope rappels. Rappelling already has dangerous elements- ledge exposure, sound anchors or not, rapping off the rope ends, knots for linking ropes, etc. SLR just increases chances for error and we're seeing that manifested here. The occasional canyoneer should not employ SLR - my opinion.

    I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used. I'm not convinced the same can be said of the single line rappel.

    I don't think mr jones is adding valuable contribution to the conversation by arguing that there is only some correlation to SLR in these cases and not a direct link to these accidents - stop deflecting.

    Clearly people are f-ing this technique up. Some are dying. Now, if you feel comfortable with this, then ok. Post the accident report, beat up on the victim and do not offer up your counsel and guidance.

    All I'm respectfully asking for... is that the leadership as represented largely in those already posting on this thread... instead of convicting post-accident victims as incompetent, is to continue to educate, instruct, warn and help future canyoneers not make the same mistake. There is weigh to your words... use it well.

    All of you guys (moon, jman, iceaxe) are respected for your views - especially mr jones. But you must take responsibility to reiterate and re-educate as the situation demands. This is one of those times. There are new people coming into this sport every day. Help them.
    Canyoneering (at least some of it) involves using ropes. Using ropes requires some skill set. If you don't have that skill set and go out and do things, when you mess up you are likely to get hurt or die. All these accidents involve people who do not have the required skill set.

    The skill set required for Single Rope Technique SRT is similar but not the same as that required for Double Rope Technique.

    I realize you are of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by SRT. While I am of the canyoneering/political party that says every accident is caused by screwing up. Some blame Obama, some blame Trump.

    It is not my responsibility to educate everyone who suspects they are a canyoneer in proper technique. It's just not. Me and mine (Hank, Ramoo, etc.) have done a huge amount of mentoring over the last 18 years, but no, we cannot keep up.

    Rant rant rant. Perhaps you should do something that does more than flapping your gums - like taking beginners out and inflicting some technique on them.

    Tom

  24. #18
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickRock View Post
    I don't know how many double rope rappel failures there are in Zion, but close to zero would have been prevented if single line rappers had been used.
    My good friend Louis Johnson died because he was using double-rope technique. If he had been on a single rope, he would not have died. (but it was a lot more complicated than that).

    The fellow in Robber's Roost might have died because he was using double-rope technique, though it seems more likely it was a heart attack. His brother would have been able to reach him after his fall, if he had used SRT, and would not have spent several days on a ledge awaiting rescue.

    The guy who broke his back on the last rap in Heaps lost control because of DRT. He was "experienced", but this was the first time he had EVER rappelled single-strand. I would suggest that the last rap in Heaps is not a good place to try a technique you had not previously used. (The guy was 24 years old, and had broken his back twice previously... jus' sayin').

    Same for Cabe's friend in Pine Creek.

    But we have both barked around this tree many times.

    That Byron has no idea why SRT is the worldwide standard technique for canyoneering says more about Byron than it does about SRT. You want to use DRT, please, be my guest. Whatever works for you.

    But I do offer up my counsel and guidance, perhaps even too much. USE TECHNIQUES THAT YOU UNDERSTAND.

    And let me recall for you the two rules of canyoneering - and you only really need two rules:

    1. Don't frak it up and die.

    and

    2. If you break Rule #1, don't take anyone with you.

    Tom

  25. #19
    Hey Tom! I'm sure you know where this is, right? Although the folks above me are using a rope on this little feature, I threw my pack and then jumped into the pool...just like I do every time. I also didn't bring a helmet or even a harness...I did the whole thing with a diaper sling. You know what that is, right?

    I play by my own rules. Ain't dead yet!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  26. #20
    I have been against SRT as the "standard" technique since its inception. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), and SRT does nothing to simplify the system. But since the "Great Ones" (tm) are advocating the system it will remain the standard and more people will continue to die because of it.

    Here is just one of the numerous bogley historical threads where I rant about needles death's caused by SRT:

    LAMAR & Other Stupid Ideas
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...r-Stupid-Ideas

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