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Thread: Let's Talk About Overcrowding at the ZNP

  1. #1

    Let's Talk About Overcrowding at the ZNP

    With millions passing through Zion National Park every year, the question looms large: What to do with the ever increasing masses?


    http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/arc.../#.WW9hVoTyvRb
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  3. #2
    How about stop advertising the living shizz out of the parks?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

  4. Likes DiscGo, rockgremlin, Iceaxe liked this post
  5. #3
    Industrialized tourism is destroying our National Parks. And I expect Arches NP to be next on the permit list.

  6. Likes moab mark, rockgremlin liked this post
  7. #4
    High speed monorail with "selfies" quick stops at prominent locations.

    Get folks in then out check that box, upload to facebook...on to the next park.

    Trails will be uncrowded. Win win.

  8. Likes Iceaxe liked this post
  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Industrialized tourism is destroying our National Parks. And I expect Arches NP to be next on the permit list.

    If you ask any environmentalist they'll tell you that COAL MINING is destroying our National Parks. WTF? Could someone please offer me a sane and rational explanation of just how exactly coal mining is destroying our National Parks?

    This cleverly placed billboard is just across the street from Rocky Mountain Power on North Temple near Redwood Road, courtesy of Sierra Club.

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    I'm all ears -- somebody please inform me how Arches National Park is being destroyed by coal.

    #idiocracy #theskyisfalling
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  10. Likes moab mark liked this post
  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    If you ask any environmentalist they'll tell you that COAL MINING is destroying our National Parks. WTF? Could someone please offer me a sane and rational explanation of just how exactly coal mining is destroying our National Parks?

    This cleverly placed billboard is just across the street from Rocky Mountain Power on North Temple near Redwood Road, courtesy of Sierra Club.

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    I'm all ears -- somebody please inform me how Arches National Park is being destroyed by coal.

    #idiocracy #theskyisfalling
    You're right...it is idiocracy.

    Soon enough, folks will be pouring gatoraid on crops to see if they grow...and you'll have someone who'd been in a pro wrestling ring as president...oh wait, I guess that's now...ha ha. (Funny movie, but, kinda ominous if you consider reality).

    <font size="2">

    I'm sure someone will sell us on the benefits of breathing coal dust. Probably an offshoot of one of them Utah County multi level marketing firms like Nu Skin.

    http://kutv.com/news/local/follow-the-profit-how-mormon-culture-made-utah-a-hotbed-for-multi-level-marketers

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/o...pplements.html

    At least our folks in congress are looking out for us...ha ha...

    https://www.nrdc.org/experts/huge-ne...anyon-bad-idea

    Off the cuff, I can think of air quality as being a deal. Remember seeing the stars? Or, how many miles from the rim of the Grand Canyon you could see? Now? Not so much. Hazy.

    Water quality? Remember that go 'round with the Gold King Mine in Colorado a couple years ago?

    Not to mention noise pollution, truck traffic, scenery (a strip mine has no impact? Really?).

    Funny timing on this topic...ate lunch today with a co-worker who left the DEQ who's job it was to oversee mining and coal. Bryce Canyon's coal situation was brought up. They toured rep's from Mike Lee's office as part of the onsite permit process. They had to draw the line when the political banner was rolled out for photo's...

    Look at the purpose for National Parks..."the fundamental purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

    Pave paradise, put up a parking lot...

  12. #7
    ^^^OK, let's first acknowledge the fact that the Gold King Mine spill in Colorado was caused because of misunderstandings and ineptitude on the part of the EPA -- not the mine operator. I've read detailed accounts of what exactly took place there, and I couldn't believe what I was reading. "The trackhoe operator did WHAT?!" Unbelievable...

    And secondly, I can guaran-damn-tee there is absolutely ZERO plans in the works to mine coal in Bryce Canyon. And whatever coal dust being generated at the Coal Hollow mine near Alton isn't drifting over and coating all of the buttes and spires in Bryce Canyon. That's all non-sense and scare tactics cooked up by the Sierra Club and Friends of Dixie, et al. They all make it out to sound like you can see the coal mine from the Bryce Canyon overlook.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  13. #8

  14. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Outdated SLTrib Article

    This article is two years old. And the information within this article is mixed -- some negative, and some positive.


    Quote Originally Posted by some chicken little nonsense

    This link is the epitome of the environmentalist scare tactic hogwash I was referring to. Let's break down the B.S., shall we?

    1. Headline #1 ripped straight from the article:


    Quote Originally Posted by Sevier County website
    Utah National Park Tourism Threatened
    So, because some small time open pit coal mine operates just outside of Alton, tourism at Zion and Bryce Canyon is going to crumble? Nonsense...

    Have you been to the Coal Hollow mine? You can't even see it from the main road. Cryin' out loud, it's 6.5 miles off of highway 89 on dirt roads. Most LOCALS don't even know where it is or how to get there, much less tourists.


    In the mining world, Coal Hollow is small potatoes. The permit area is large, but the actual disturbed area at any given time is really quite small. The media LOVES to paint a picture of some massive strip mine throwing tons of coal dust all over the place, but the reality of the situation is that it's just not that ominous. Definitely not as ominous as the Sierra Club and the Salt Lake Tribune would have everyone believe.

    2. Headline #2 straight from their article:


    Quote Originally Posted by Sevier County website
    "Local Jobs and Nearby Towns Benefiting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevier County website
    A nearby town, Alton, Utah near the Coal Hollow Mine has experienced a massive increase in semi truck traffic and gained zero jobs for local residents. The jobs provided by the mine have gone to specialists and out of state and area drivers...

    ^^^This, my friend, is an outright bold-faced lie. I've personally met with the mine operators and heavy machinery operators that work there -- many of whom LIVE IN ALTON.

    3. Headline #3:


    Quote Originally Posted by Sevier County website
    "Children and generations to come will be impacted."
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevier County website
    The Alton mine creates horrendous truck traffic on U.S. Highway 89 already,” said a Salt Lake Tribune editorial opposing the proposal, “and such an expansion would ruin the quality of life for residents and discourage the wealth of tourists.” The Trib called a larger mine “unconscionable.

    The headline promises the mine will "impact children" --- and then turns around and qualifies that by stating that it would "...affect the wealth of tourists." WTF does that even mean? Affect the wealth of tourists?
    While I appreciate the non-nonsensical (albeit passionate) narrative, the author of this editorial needs to come with something stronger than just emotions backed up with no facts.

    And another thing --- why does Sevier County give two $hits about what goes on in Kane County...two full counties south of Sevier County? I'm guessing Kane County is probably pleased to have the mine there.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  15. #10
    I'm still waiting for those oil rigs to pop up within site of Delicate Arch, then I can fly my drone over it and give the ol' National Parks a double whammy

  16. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post


    I'm sure someone will sell us on the benefits of breathing coal dust. Probably an offshoot of one of them Utah County multi level marketing firms like Nu Skin.
    I'm not waiting to hear the benefits, I'm just waiting to hear about the harm the coal dust is doing to Arches, without changing the topic to Mormonism.

  17. Likes rockgremlin liked this post
  18. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    I'm not waiting to hear the benefits, I'm just waiting to hear about the harm the coal dust is doing to Arches, without changing the topic to Mormonism.
    Trib article that came up in a google earth...helps to understand the audience (ha ha).

    Arches is a symbol for all national parks, right? Delicate arch. You know, like on your license plate...

    Anyhoo...my take is the hubbub is over expansion of a strip mine near a national park.

    Funny...pull up NOAA and see the weather forecast for Alton Utah. Its the "current conditions at Bryce Canyon Airport". Wind direction and speed? WSW at 15mph.

    So, if you were dust from, say, an open pit coal mine...what direction would the wind have to blow to reach Bryce National Park?

    And, what level of coal dust is acceptable for you and your family to breathe? The DEQ monitors it, right? What level is safe for how long?

    Besides being an eyesore...strip mines are messy. There's always a water concern (see google earth and the ponds adjacent to this mine for example) too. I'm sure it'll be someone from the EPA's fault if the area's water gets contaminated...

    (As an aside, the recent NOVA special on Flint Michigan's water was interesting...).

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/poisoned-water.html

    Health side effects from coal mining?

    https://www.hcs.harvard.edu/hghr/pri...1/coal-mining/

    The employment picture?

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ning-jobs.html

    How many people does that strip mine employ? 36?

    Annual revenue is 5 million?

    How many people in Cedar City work in solar?

    Price for coal? Historical high and low? Emerging industry or hanger on?

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...as-future.html

    Its tough sleddin' out there for coal mining. Maybe some level is sustainable...but industry expansion?

    Crazy industry...these boom and bust resources.

    Wonder how much the price of a barrel of crude on the world market is a player?
    Last edited by Brian in SLC; 07-20-2017 at 03:20 PM. Reason: edit to link the NOVA episode on Flint water

  19. #13
    I find it entertaining that people on a website that promotes all things outdoor recreation related with a decided emphasis on southern Utah red rock are complaining about overcrowding in a Utah national park.

    Could it be that people have over promoted the experience? I'm not one to know the answer as the last time I saw fit to be part of the problem was about 1973.There are plenty of other places to see.

  20. Likes rockgremlin liked this post
  21. #14
    I forgot to mention that the local land owners around Alton are getting paid some pretty handsome royalties. Almost without exception all of the ranchers promote as much coal mining as possible. More coal mining = more royalty money.

    I'm really trying not to tip my hand as to why and how I am familiar with Coal Hollow. I don't work for them but I have my eyes on them on almost a daily basis. And I can assure you they're not the devil the media makes them out to be.

    The attached images show areas of their mine that have been fully reclaimed.

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    This used to be an open strip mine. It's now a reclaimed field, restored to approximate original contour.

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    Again, this open field used to be a dirty, ugly, coal filled gash. It's now been fully reclaimed and restored to approximate original contour. Those structures in the foreground are air monitors that take samples of the ambient air several times a day. What looks like rocks behind the air monitors is actually a rip-rap lined reclaimed water channel.

    The Sage Grouse populations that live on the permit area are flourishing.

    But let's shut them down because coal is evil...
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  22. Likes Sandstone Addiction, devo_stevo liked this post
  23. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by middlefork View Post
    I find it entertaining that people on a website that promotes all things outdoor recreation related with a decided emphasis on southern Utah red rock are complaining about overcrowding in a Utah national park.

    Could it be that people have over promoted the experience? I'm not one to know the answer as the last time I saw fit to be part of the problem was about 1973.There are plenty of other places to see.
    Not to mention promoting strip mining of coal, anti-EPA, anti-environmentalism, climate change denying, pro extraction industries, anti outdoor retailers...

    Ha ha.

    We're a diverse crowd, to be sure.

    Celebrate that diversity!

  24. #16
    So that's it? I post first hand evidence of a coal mine acting responsibly and the response I get is...sarcasm. SMH
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  25. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by middlefork View Post
    I find it entertaining that people on a website that promotes all things outdoor recreation related with a decided emphasis on southern Utah red rock are complaining about overcrowding in a Utah national park.
    Too be fair...I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering how the parks service is going to manage this issue. It's a big problem that's only gonna get worse if mismanaged.

    How do you think it ought to be handled? Permits only? Reservation system for all or most of the park? Locals only? (Haha) How is this same problem addressed at other parks like Yellowstone and Yosemite for example?
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  26. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rockgremlin View Post
    Too be fair...I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering how the parks service is going to manage this issue. It's a big problem that's only gonna get worse if mismanaged.

    How do you think it ought to be handled? Permits only? Reservation system for all or most of the park? Locals only? (Haha) How is this same problem addressed at other parks like Yellowstone and Yosemite for example?
    Yosemite is toying with vehicle restrictions per day. Once the cap is reached it goes to one out / one in.

    Seems like all the camping in National Parks are pretty much reserved sites. Just set the system up so you reserve a day/s stay/use up to a month in advance. Would it suck? Sure it would but really no different than a concert or ball game.

    I'm sure you could get creative with a pricing grid to demand more money during peak days or weeks. Maybe it would help with the maintenance deficit.

  27. #19
    Oh and that sure is a pretty reclaimed coal mine!

  28. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by middlefork View Post
    Oh and that sure is a pretty reclaimed coal mine!
    I almost hesitate to post stuff like that because the popular perception is so strong against mining that the second anybody casts a positive light on it they're immediately burned at the stake.

    And what really grinds my gears is that the people that are most vocal against it are typically those that are the least informed.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  29. Likes Sandstone Addiction liked this post

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