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Thread: Let's Talk About Overcrowding at the ZNP

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    I'm not waiting to hear the benefits, I'm just waiting to hear about the harm the coal dust is doing to Arches, without changing the topic to Mormonism.
    Oh what do YOU know? You HATE outdoor recreation, remember?
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

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  4. #22
    And what really grinds my gears is that the people that are most vocal against it are typically those that are the least informed.
    ^^^THIS^^^

    I've visited several reclaimed mine sites both before and after and they really do a good job of reclaimimg. It's not like the mines were in the most scenic places to begin with. The sites are often an ugly sagebrush flat before mining and is returned to an ugly sagebrush flat after.

    And I'm willing to bet if I took most of you to four sites, one of which was a reclaimed mine, most of you would guess wrong as to which site was the reclaimed mine.

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  6. #23
    I've visited several reclaimed mine sites both before and after and they really do a good job of reclaimimg
    I agree 100%, but that's because they have to by law. Before the law was passed, they didn't do any reclamation. If the law was repealed, they would go back to the other way because reclamation often cost more than the mining itself (especially strip mines). That's why mining companies are required to secure a bond before mining a new area.

    Some mines are actually required to add wildlife habitat and improve (in theory at least) the land rather than just restore it to pre-mining condition. For the strip mine south of town, for example, much of the brush land was converted to grassland for wildlife (mostly elk habitat). So, it is true that most modern mines do an excellent job of reclaiming the land (because they have to by law rather than out of the goodness of their hearts).

    The real issue with coal mines/power plants is air pollution. In my own experience, coal mining companies and communities aren't always honest about what they are putting into the air.

    Of course we need power and all use it (me included-my power bill is around $30 a month), as we should (an advanced civilization needs power-I fully support using power and energy), but I see no reason why there shouldn't be an effort to do it cleanly. If it cost a few extra bucks a month, so be it.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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  8. #24
    I think we are pretty much screwed when it comes to crowds. We have an overbreeding problem and if we don't get that fixed our national parks will be the least of our problems.

    I just got back from a week in Yellowstone and the crowds were insane at the roadside attractions. Sometimes 15 minute waits just to park. Grand Prismatic Spring is pretty cool, but when you are fighting for space with 500 of your closest friends it kind of kills the experience. Of course as soon as you got off the road about 1 mile the crowds were a distant memory. I did joke that I would jump on the Trump train if he would restrict the national parks to citizens only from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

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  10. #25
    FWIW - if we fix our over breeding problem the liberal house of cards known as social entitlements will calapes.... Just sayin'

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  12. #26

    Let's Talk About Overcrowding at the ZNP

    Denali National Park asks people not to post on social media. Specifically not to reveal the locations of any off trail destinations. Not a bad idea, but I'm afraid it's too late for that policy to be effective in places like Zion.

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  14. #27
    Social media is not the problem, it's the multi million dollar ad campaigns that are the problem.

  15. #28
    While I agree that over advertising is a huge contributing factor. I don't think you can completely absolve social media of all responsibility.

    You can't tell me that all of the pictures of the subway posted on Instagram and Facebook have had zero impact on people's exposure to and subsequent desire to see it.


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  16. #29
    I agree that social media is part of the problem, it just pales in comparison to the industrialized tourist industry.

    How many Facebook posts would be eliminated if the tourists were not first enticed by multi million dollar ad campaigns? This is a bit of the chicken and egg argument.

  17. #30
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    I had this article bookmarked a while back as this thread reminded me of it: Is Instagram Ruining the Great Outdoors? https://www.outsideonline.com/216041...great-outdoors.

    It’s stuff we mostly already know but it is good perspective on taking a 2nd thought about sharing the pictures online or telling people of directions on how to get there.

    I thought that was smart that parks are not only using sharing great pictures of the National Parks with us but also educating. Zion NP for example shares blips of the local flora/fauna that is found there, or recent graffiti found in the park, or don’t build cairns farms on Angels Landing. Not criticizing people specifically, but criticizing the practice. And so on.


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  18. #31
    Zion National Park’s visitor use management planning group has released preliminary alternative concepts. The alternatives are intended to address the unacceptable impacts to park resources, and the quality of visitor experience associated with the unsustainable growth in visitation.

    The public has two more weeks to comment on these alternative concepts during the comment period which ends on August 14, 2017. Comments can be submitted by going to the National Park Service, Planning, Environment, and Public Comment (PEPC) website at:
    https://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectID=58542. Once on the website, select “Open for Comment.”

    Comments can also be sent via U.S. Mail to:
    Zion National Park
    Attn: Visitor Use Planning
    State Route 9
    Springdale, UT 84767



  19. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by accadacca View Post
    Comments can also be sent via U.S. Mail to:


    I'll be sending my comments via Pony Express. Spare no horseflesh...
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  20. #33
    I recently spent a week living at the campground there. Riding my bike to and from town for food/supplies.

    There are certainly a lot of people, but I don't think it's "overcrowded". IMO, two things need to be done...first, separate the big parking lot from the park. Nearly everyone just parks and heads for the VC or the shuttles anyway. Build an off ramp before the entrance and then the folks passing thru don't have to wait. I saw lines clear up the the Subway on the hill. They can have another walk up station along with the one near the bridge.

    Also, that campground is a friggin' mess. It hasn't changed since my first visit in 1989. The bathrooms are pathetic, at least. It all needs to be cleaned up and updated. Perhaps arrange for more capacity.

    Do those two things and I think everything there would be honky dory.
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  21. #34
    All it takes is money...

    As an engineer I'm asked daily "can you fix this" or "can you build that" and my reply is always the same "I can do anything if you give me enough time and money".

  22. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    All it takes is money...

    As an engineer I'm asked daily "can you fix this" or "can you build that" and my reply is always the same "I can do anything if you give me enough time and money".
    I agree 100%, but while visitor use is increasing, funding is being cut.

    The only solutions to this are either raise the fees, fund the parks properly, or live with what we have. Personally I'd rather see the parks funded rather than throwing our money into problems for countries that don't share our values.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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  24. #36
    Major renovations and upgrades to our National Parks here at home.....or.....bomb Syria.

    It's a tough call.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  25. #37
    Simple supply and demand curve. Raise the prices a little. I have no problem with charging non citizens a higher fee also. I do a lot of out of state hunting, and the tags are always drastically more money. That's just life and how it goes, I don't feel like I'm being dealt with badly in any way

  26. #38
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2065toyota View Post
    Simple supply and demand curve. Raise the prices a little. I have no problem with charging non citizens a higher fee also. I do a lot of out of state hunting, and the tags are always drastically more money. That's just life and how it goes, I don't feel like I'm being dealt with badly in any way

    ^^^^^
    Exactly this....

    Then chip away the nps bureaucracy.

    Drain the swamp, it will free up vast resources in all services.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


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  27. #39
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    upon further thought, at least a 50-100% increase in gate fees.

    If you can't swing it, save until you can or get another job.

    The current fee's are part of what causes folks to treat National treasures like route 66 side shows.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

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  28. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Then chip away the nps bureaucracy.

    Drain the swamp, it will free up vast resources in all services.
    Now days many (maybe even most?) of the NPS workers are unpaid volunteers.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

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