Trump to order review of national monument designations

[Iceaxe]

30 executive orders in 100 days...

Didn't we already cover this?!?

Executive orders are completely legal and are completely within the Executive Branch of power. The only time someone considers it overreach is when they come out on the losing side. So nothing to see here, please move along.....

I believe the real issue is with the Antiquities Act, which many believe is not being used as originally intended, in addition to granting one person far to much power with no oversight.

I've believed for years (since Escalante was designated a NM) that the Antiquities Act should be reigned in to require some type of oversight and approval.

Give a guy a big ass hammer and he'll find some big ass nails to pound with it.

[rockgremlin]

Again, I'm going to insist upon some actual concrete proof of viable, exploitable resource in the ground in Bears Ears. Because according to every regulatory agency in Utah there's really nothing there.

Anybody who claims otherwise is grandstanding and making up facts to support an agenda.

[stefan]

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/in...st-ever-formal

[Brian in SLC]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/keep-p...c-hands#page-7

Interesting article I hadn't seen before...

I've always thought when it comes to public land and access, tree huggers, greenies, environmentalists, left wing eco wacko's...all have more in common with hunters, fishermen, ATV'ers, motorcyle riders, mountain bikers, bird watchers...and should be on the same side of these kinds of issues.

We might not agree on appropriate use for certain lands, but, access to public land is a cornerstone for all of us.

[twotimer]

ATV'ers, motorcyle riders, mountain bikers,

I think this is where it gets sticky.

[Iceaxe]

I've played this game for over 50 years.... The off road crowd would be thrilled to share the public land, but the tree huggers have no intentions of including off road in the final mix.

And to take it a step further the MTB crowd has recently been tossed under the bus by the tree huggers and are not happy about it. The tree huggers have been working hard on getting the wording on restrictions changed from "motorized" to "mechanical".

[erial]

http://www.hcn.org/articles/monument...set-up-to-fail

[jman]

http://www.hcn.org/articles/monument...set-up-to-fail

Intriguing read.

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”

This is doesn’t sit me me very well however. Being a full time BLM firefighter many years ago we were not “anti-federal”. And it certainly did not have to do with the “Mormon way of thinking”.


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[rockgremlin]

Intriguing read.

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”

This is doesn’t sit me me very well however. Being a full time BLM firefighter many years ago we were not “anti-federal”. And it certainly did not have to do with the “Mormon way of thinking”.

Concur. I read the entire article. It's an interesting read, but I'd have to say it's poignancy outweighs its objectivity.

There are some things I agree with -- like I despise how Gov. Herbert is a good ole boy, who very obviously denounces conservation in order to prop up his southern Utah ties. But the bit about antagonism towards the federal government originating with Brigham Young? Methinks that's a stretch.

I always assumed one of the biggest reasons for the designation of the monument was to put the kibosh on a major coal mine that would've gone up in Smoky Hollow. Utah's DOGM had issued Andalex the permit to proceed with mining, and then Clinton swooped in with his executive pen and squashed it. Since Andalex was granted a permit to mine before the monument's designation, they could have proceeded forward to mine, but decided against it in the face of potentially overwhelming backlash.

[Scott P]

“But the homesteaders, Shelton told me, have a peculiar view of their relationship with the federal government. “You have to realize that a large part of the federal land management workforce in Utah is anti-federal,” she said. “Probably half of the staff at the Grand Staircase is anti-federal. I think a lot of it does have to do with the Mormon way of thinking.”
------
But the bit about antagonism towards the federal government originating with Brigham Young? Methinks that's a stretch.

You are right that it doesn't fit the majority of Mormons in Utah, but it does have much truth to it concerning some of the small towns, including that of Escalante itself. I attended church many times in Escalante in the 1990's and 2000's and the bishop (Bishop Wade Barney) there was always mentioning Brigham Young while ragging on the Feds, outsiders, and environmentalist. I was there when he said that the congregation should start running non-Mormons out of town (which sort of shocked me to hear).

Shortly after that his comments to the congregation hit national news when during sacrament he said that the congregation needs to start a holy war against outsiders and environmentalists. Some residents (almost surely of the congregation) started vandalizing property of people known to support environmental causes. The bishop said that they got what they deserved. This time though, it didn't set well with the church leaders in SLC and the bishop was released.

I guess the ironic part of all this is that Brigham Young was one of the first environmentalist I know of in the country. His way of thinking concerning the environment was way ahead of its time. If he were alive today, he would be branded and extreme environmentalist and radical by Utah lawmakers and much of the rural community. Brigham Young was very pro-public lands (way ahead of his time) and for protection of nature preserves. He was actually more environmentalist than almost all of today's environmentalists because he advocated only taking what you need to live on and preserving the rest of the land in a natural state.

Here are official statements by the LDS Church itself from the Newsroom on LDS.org:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...ent-statements

It's very ironic that many Utah Mormons aren't aware or don't care about what has been said in the above.

I always assumed one of the biggest reasons for the designation of the monument was to put the kibosh on a major coal mine that would've gone up in Smoky Hollow.

This is true. Some still want the coal mine, but even if the monument and all environmental restrictions are scrapped, the coal industry is in decline. The coal at Smokey Hollow isn't of the best quality and it is unlikely that even if the mine were opened in the 1990's that it would have survived until today. Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

[rockgremlin]

This is true. Some still want the coal mine, but even if the monument and all environmental restrictions are scrapped, the coal industry is in decline. The coal at Smokey Hollow isn't of the best quality and it is unlikely that even if the mine were opened in the 1990's that it would have survived until today. Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

In addition to coal being on the decline, one of the biggest hurdles for coal coming out of Smoky Hollow would've been where to ship it. The power plant in Delta is converting to natural gas in 2025, so they really could only ship coal there for another 8 years. Outside of the Delta plant they'd have to contract with the Navajo power plant in Arizona, but that plant already has a steady supply of coal from the enormous Kayenta mine just east of the plant. The closest third option is the Hunter power plant in central Utah, but that's a long haul through a lot of communities that oppose large coal trucks rolling through their town. Beyond that, overseas markets for coal aren't very strong these days -- and that's assuming you could find a port in California who will agree to take coal -- which is next to impossible.

What we're witnessing here is the slow demise of a once mighty industry. Tough to be a coal miner these days. Personally, I'd be shocked if in 20 years we're still mining coal for power generation.

[Sombeech]

It's not so much the "Mormon way of thinking", it's that the non Mormons assume the Mormons are all in league together and are discussing these things every Sunday together, getting the political talking points straight.

When it comes to things like this, the National Monuments, there is NO Mormon way of thinking. These things are not brought up on Sunday, at least from the multiple locations, people, and demographics I've attended church with. These things just aren't talked about.

Now if somebody's got a story where they remember somebody sharing their political opinions during the sermon at church, I'm going to ask you why you didn't politely raise your hand and ask to keep politics out of the sermon, speech, or lesson.

So many people assume that the Mormons are banding together on certain subjects, and it's just not happening. Certain people with similar political views certainly get together and talk, and discuss ideas, but religion has ZERO to do with it, at least in the Mormon church.

It's odd how some can be so certain of what Mormons do in church, when there has never been any interest in attending for themselves to see just what goes on.

I'm told all of the time, about what we do and what we discuss in church, by non Mormons who have no interest in attending. I'm not sure where their spy cameras are set up but I think they need some better angles.

The only thing political that has been on the Mormon church agenda, talked about in Sunday School, is to NOT discuss politics.

If somebody wants to pay me, I'll be a legitimate outlet for anybody that wants to know what we talked about in church. I'll tell you all. Or you could save money and just show up to spy on the secret agenda, but I'll gladly take your money.

[rockgremlin]

^^^Well, that may be the case in urban Wasatch Front Mormon gatherings, but everything is different in small town Utah. Believe me. I've lived in three small Utah towns, and the attitudes are very different in the smaller communities where the Bishopric, Stake Presidency and High Council all hold prominent city and county leadership positions. Especially where the federal government threatens local livelihoods that have been established in the community for decades.

[Iceaxe]

Meanwhile the industries related to the National Parks and Monuments are booming.

The big problem with that is most the industry and jobs related to the National Parks and Monuments are all low paying bottomfeeder jobs.

Energy and mining provide much higher paying jobs in comparison.

[Scott P]

The big problem with that is most the industry and jobs related to the National Parks and Monuments are all low paying bottomfeeder jobs.

Energy and mining provide much higher paying jobs in comparison.

I mostly agree, but in that region the lower paying jobs are also more steady. Energy and mining is usually boom and bust. I said earlier that if a coal mine was opened up in the Grand Staircase, it likely would have been shut down by now for the reasons Rock pointed out. The tourism jobs are still there.

The thing about rural areas is that they are rural for a reason. If there were a lot of high paying jobs there, more people would move in to the point that they wouldn't be rural anymore.

I live in a rural area by choice, but I also know that I will make less money here. I could make a lot more money if I moved to Denver, but it's not worth it to me. Obviously for millions of other people, it is.

I do have an education and lots of experience though. I don't know why many people in rural areas just expect that it will be easy to find an unlimited number of high paying jobs for people with no education. It is true that things like coal mining do pay high wages to people who are completely uneducated (when I worked at the coal mine a lot of those guys couldn't even read or write and didn't both graduating high school).

If money is your primary purpose in life, then get an education (if you are able), work hard, get some experience, and move to the big city. Don't expect that high paying jobs in rural areas will be available to high school dropouts on a permanent basis.

[Iceaxe]

I disagree, the majority of the jobs that come with the NPS are typically seasonal.

Most industies experience peaks and valleys, that's just the nature of the beast. Mining and energy are no different.

I've been in mining and energy most my adult life and for the most part there is a lot of money and a good solid living to be made. Only downside I really know of is you must be willing to relocate to where the work is as the landscape changes.

There is little money to be made by the majority working the tourist industry that comes with the NPS.

[rockgremlin]

^^^Being on both sides of the coin I can argue for both sides. Ice is right that there's much more $$$ to be made in the extractive minerals industry, although it's true you've gotta go where the mines are. And the majority of the mines are NOT in popular, attractive locations. Kennecott is a rare exception. On my side, due to market conditions (ie copper prices) I've felt the sting of layoffs and relocation. It ain't fun, but it's a risk you choose to accept when you work in this industry.

Employment stability and mining are strange bedfellows.

[Scott P]

I've been in mining and energy most my adult life and for the most part there is a lot of money and a good solid living to be made.

I agree, but in rural areas the energy and mining industry is usually boom and bust. I live in a mining town and have lived in another fossil fuel town. This has been for almost half of my life and it has always been like that. It was like that long before I moved here as well.

In cities with mining and energy jobs such as Salt Lake or Houston, it is more stable, but in most mining and energy rural areas, it's a boom and bust economy.

[Iceaxe]

So bottomline you can have a shitty job with low wages, seasonal employment, and little chance of improvement.... or.... you can gamble with the boom and bust that comes with high paying energy and mining jobs where fortunes can be made.... hmmm.... What to do, what to do....

[twotimer]

There's nothing wrong with the boom and bust. Make the bank while you can.