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Thread: Confederate Statues removed in New Orleans

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    The term "Civil War" is a relatively modern term for what was known at the time as "the war of Northern aggression" or "the war of Southern aggression" or "War of Southern Independence". Those were the terms used at the time of the war. I inserted it to see who really knows their American history.
    Cite a single pre1950's reference for referring to the war as "the war of Northern Aggression". Especially given the succession from the Union and attack on Ft. Sumter by your guy Beauregard.

    The War of Succession. The War of Separation. The War of the Rebellion. Lincoln's War.

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  3. #42
    In 1862 Union General John McClernand used the term War of Northern Aggression in a speach. It was not a popular phrase during the Civil War, but neither was the term Civil War.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1862/09/03/ne...cclernand.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name...ar?wprov=sfla1


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  5. #43
    As an aside...a possible physical connection...my Colt 1860 .44, martially marked:

    Name:  Colt 1860.jpg
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    Circa 1862 with the cutouts for a stock. I like the balance of this pistol...

  6. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    While would tend to agree with Shane on this one about preserving history, I fully admit that if a was the descendant of a slave, I might feel different.
    Exactly. These monuments were intended to nurture / support a specific viewpoint. Where are the public historical monuments reminding us of slavery?

    Re: the supposed public value of these monuments in promoting an understanding of history. I imagine that such monuments actually have a negative impact on the public understanding of history. The study of history is an undertaking that is far less rigorous than say, climate science, which is highly politicized and distorted by belief and ideology. History is obviously even more so, and with monuments being the 3D equivalent of a sound bite, they mostly serve to magnify the distortion.

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  8. #45
    Resident Southern Belle savanna3313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Exactly. These monuments were intended to nurture / support a specific viewpoint. Where are the public historical monuments reminding us of slavery?

    Re: the supposed public value of these monuments in promoting an understanding of history. I imagine that such monuments actually have a negative impact on the public understanding of history. The study of history is an undertaking that is far less rigorous than say, climate science, which is highly politicized and distorted by belief and ideology. History is obviously even more so, and with monuments being the 3D equivalent of a sound bite, they mostly serve to magnify the distortion.
    There are many public designations for civil rights, etc. I'm not sure about actual slavery. But those who fought against it, yes. Streets, museums, federal holidays, etc.....etc.

    I have been on the road with my move to St. George and haven't been online much. I have enjoyed reading all of the conversation going on regarding this issue. It is interesting to hear the varying views on the subject.

    This isn't a pro or anti slave issue. Right or wrong, it was history. New Orleans is also one reason the country grew as it did with the export and import business that brought in billions for the country. I grew up in this city and most of my life was spent there. It has not recovered since Katrina, and now with a mayor who's sights are set on a Presidential run in 2020, he will do all the ass kissing possible to secure his future position. This should have been something voted on by the citizens of the city - period. Why do you think this is all being done by masked workers in the middle of the night? It has gotten so ridiculous as to some saying the Saints football team will have to change their logo of the fleur-de-lis because it represents Creole aristocracy and they were slave owners. Where does it stop? And I wholly agree that the push to eradicate Jefferson Memorial and such will build steam in the future.

    On the bright side - it's a beautiful morning in red rock country! Out on the patio drinking my New Orleans French Market coffee and enjoying God's monuments.
    Never regret anything that made you smile!

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  10. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by savanna3313 View Post
    Right or wrong, it was history.
    The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single, fixed viewpoint among many.

    What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)

  11. #47
    Resident Southern Belle savanna3313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    History is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by a monument, which generally serves to promote a simplistic and distorted view of history.

    What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)

    Gosh....I will be happy to go into detail when I have more time. My movers are showing up today after the truck broke down outside of Durango CO and the transmission had to be replaced. Moving is so much fun! Only a week late.....
    Never regret anything that made you smile!

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  13. #48

  14. #49
    Here's the speech given by Mayor Landrieu if anyone wants to read it:

    http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/tr...rate-monuments
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  15. #50
    https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45631

    12 Years a Slave

    Great read, and a public domain book, so it's free. If you're interested in history, don't miss it. Differs substantially from the movie (in a good way).

  16. #51
    Resident Southern Belle savanna3313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single viewpoint among many.

    What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    The history of an event is a complex story that is constantly evolving and cannot be conveyed by monuments, which generally serve to promote only a single viewpoint among many.

    What is your take on the value of the recently removed monuments? Why should they not have been removed? On a practical, non-ideological level if possible, please. With detail! :-)
    I feel that no matter what I reply, it will not be "correct". This thread was started by me because I was truly interested in varying opinions on the subject. Especially from those far-removed from the area. The frustration of the matter - the citizens of the city were not asked, did not have a chance to object, etc. The statues were removed in the dead of night, by masked workers. It should've gone to a vote. In addition, the crime and deterioration of the city surpass understanding. The night the Beauregard statue was removed, 5 people were shot on the street - 2 died. The streets have pot holes bigger than some cars. Many neighborhoods are still in the same condition as the day they were after Katrina even though billions poured in to the state post Katrina. The issues that truly plague New Orleans are NOT caused by Civil War military statues. Drugs, crime, welfare "lifestyle", political and police corruption, the school system, etc...etc....etc. These are the true issues that require focus and attention. What has happened is a smoke screen pure and simple and set up to further one man's (the mayor) political agenda for the future.

    Enjoying Southern history and culture does not make me a racist. I was raised to have respect for all people and I grew up in an era where bathrooms and water fountains were colored or white. (yes I am old) As a small child, I remember I always wanted to drink from the "colored" water fountain because I thought it was like Kool-Aid since it was colored. I have black friends, gay friends, even Democratic friends - we just don't discuss politics or religion for the most part.

    New Orleans is a very eclectic city with people from all over the world that helped to settle and build the area. It's not called a melting pot by accident. From the Irish Channel to the French Quarter, its history will continue to live on regardless of current events. I just pray to God it is not eventually destroyed from within. (Let the good times roll!)
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    Never regret anything that made you smile!

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  18. #52

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  20. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by savanna3313 View Post
    I feel that no matter what I reply, it will not be "correct".
    Sorry to hear that, Savanna. There is no such thing as "correct" when it comes to this kind of stuff. I am still curious to hear a non-ideological rationale for not removing the statues. Anyone?

  21. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    I am still curious to hear a non-ideological rationale for not removing the statues. Anyone?
    Yeah...see that flag that Iceaxe posted up there? That's it! Forget the racist connotations, it's about being a Rebel...everyone can relate to that, right?

    Some people look at those statues and get themselves all butthurt for no good reason at all. I say phoey on them. My rationale for them is "Get a life".
    Suddenly my feet are feet of mud
    It all goes slo-mo
    I don't know why I am crying
    Am I suspended in Gaffa?

  22. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by twotimer View Post
    Yeah...see that flag that Iceaxe posted up there? That's it! Forget the racist connotations, it's about being a Rebel...everyone can relate to that, right?

    Some people look at those statues and get themselves all butthurt for no good reason at all. I say phoey on them. My rationale for them is "Get a life".
    Spoken like a true party Rebel!

    Maybe they should put up a Jar-Jar statue in New Republic City?

  23. #56
    Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

    Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

    But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

    I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.




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  25. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

    Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

    But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

    I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.

    I'd support removal of Sherman monuments from public space. BTW, who is saying "one is acceptable and the other is not" ?


    Best movie ever about Sherman's March: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091943/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

  26. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Legitimate question.... so when are going to remove the monuments to William Tecumseh Sherman?

    Sherman's "March to the Sea" and the pillaging, raping and burning of the South would be considered war crimes today.

    But perhaps even worse is Sherman's campaign against the American Indian which was nothing short of genocide.

    I'm failing to see why one is acceptable and the other is not.
    This is so true. Sherman's march came AFTER the Union army had sacked Atlanta, a key southern city. With Atlanta in hand, Sherman decided to add insult to injury by marching to the sea, terrorizing civilians in the wake of his 60,000 man army. In his own words, he said he needed to ride to the sea, "smashing things," to "make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."

    Almost sounds like an unnecessary victory lap.
    It's only "science" if it supports the narrative.

  27. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    I'd support removal of Sherman monuments from public space.
    Well there ya go.... I don't support removal of either statue as they are part of history and should remind us just how bitter war actually is.

    And for the record I believe Sherman fought the way a war should be fought, and that is total war (scotched earth), I mean seriously if you are going to do something do it right.

    And as a side note this is the biggest change in our fight with ISIS since Trump took over. Our armies, and those we "advise", are now encircling the enemy and annihilating them. No more of this leave the back door open bullshit so they can sneak out, avoiding conflict today but guaranteeing it tomorrow. Chaos Actual is kicking ass.....

  28. #60
    :-)


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