West Canyon - Lake Powell

[jman]

The two sides have now both presented their case and in 10 years we will all know how the canyoneering public voted :-).

One other item of interest is it's not unknown for canyoneering routes to change names over time for various reason. Keyhole in Zion is the best example I can think of as it was well known under the name Star Fish for a long time before morphing into Keyhole. I've always assume the reason for that was Keyhole was just a better and more exciting name.

That seems to be true with "Klaidescope" which is now Choprock Canyon and "Edge of the Earth" which is now Neon canyon.

I went to the "Gorging" premiere a few years back and remember Turville wanting Neon Canyon to be reverted back to "Edge of the Earth"...which hasn't happened.

Ironically, he's the same guy who refused to get involved with the Internet forums and the like.

The same will be with these Powell canyons.

ParapalegicMan says that these have been published before (which they really haven't...) and now with Bob publishing the beta (in the upcoming weeks), the worldwide web will now be referring them to his cat names and not "Amnesia" and the like.


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[twotimer]

The two sides have now both presented their case and in 10 years we will all know how the canyoneering public voted :-).

Great post. Indeed, as I was out today I considered the same thing...let the chips fall where they may. Especially since I couldn't find anything on these canyons besides the trip reports over at CC.


Now if Kelsy had recently done and named these in an updated slot book, he'd get the nod. He takes precedence because he impressed me nearly 30 years ago. But that's not the case here. It's a free for all, but ya gotta admit Bob has done a damn fine job. Serious detail rules in my book. I look forward to him filling in the beta on the rest of them.

I figure Mr. Walkingman is one of the crew that banged those out a year or two ago. My gut feeling tells me he's not a greenhorn. I wonder if any of the others have shit the shorts because of this? Hey Bob...post those up over at CC...just to see what happens, eh?

Speaking of assigning names, one of Steve Allen's books details the in and outs of the canyons on the east side of the lower Escalante, between Moody and Stevens.

Prima Donna, Fold, Shofar, Hydra, Ichabod and Beryl. He named them himself and explained the reasons for each name. I have no doubt the cowboys and the Navajo had names for them back in the day, as their sheep ladders, walls and campsites can be found in some of them. Allen either didn't consult the locals about them or he didn't care. That was 20 years ago.

Have the names stuck? Hell if I know...I can't recall a single trip report in regards to them. Backpacking and straight up Canyoneering seem to be two different animals. It seems to me that Canyoneering has a bit of a snob factor to it...at least in regards to those with smoke billowing out their ears.

[Scott P]

That seems to be true with "Klaidescope" which is now Choprock Canyon

The name Choprock is much older than Kaleidoscope, though perhaps it could be argued that Choprock refers to the main fork.

and "Edge of the Earth" which is now Neon canyon.

I don't know which name is older, but Turville was wrong that Neon is a new name. Neon Canyon was first published in 1988, but it was already a well-used name by then. It is certainly possible that the name Neon is older than Edge of the Earth as neon lighting had its hay day well before that.

Much older than either name is Caverns Hollow, but there seems to be some confusion as to if Caverns Hollow refers to Neon or Ringtail.

Now if Kelsy had recently done and named these in an updated slot book, he'd get the nod. He takes precedence because he impressed me nearly 30 years ago.

Does that mean that Sandthrax should revert to Kelsey's name of Mile 28.5 Mile Canyon.

[TommyBoy]

Does that mean that Sandthrax should revert to Kelsey's name of Mile 28.1 Mile Canyon.

Leps are Mile 28.1, Sandthrax is 28.5

[Scott P]

Leps are Mile 28.1, Sandthrax is 28.5

True. I'll edit.

[twotimer]

Does that mean that Sandthrax should revert to Kelsey's name of Mile 28.5 Mile Canyon.

Ah-ha!!! Well exceptions can be made, especially when (like Iceaxe said) the name fits.

I wonder why he didn't put names to those...did you ever talk to him about that? I kinda remember him telling me he would go to lengths to ask around about those things.

Inquiring with locals.

[Scott P]

I wonder why he didn't put names to those...did you ever talk to him about that?

Yes; he says that he doesn't like silly names. That's why his books contain names such as Little North Middle Fork of ___ Canyon.

I kinda remember him telling me he would go to lengths to ask around about those things.

He actually likes to use local names only and very seldom names from canyoneers.

[twotimer]

Yes; he says that he doesn't like silly names. That's why his books contain names such as Little North Middle Fork of ___ Canyon.



He actually likes to use local names only and very seldom names from canyoneers.

Yeah, you're right. He'd probably name those other slots in West "Northeast Fork", ect...

If I were with him on those, I'd suggest "Shingles" or maybe "Palestine" or "63 MPG". How about "Mosquito Death".

[ratagonia]

It's a free for all, but ya gotta admit Bob has done a damn fine job.

No I don't.

[SRG]

In the name of compromise I think everyone should agree on at least one canyon name...

The Hall of Horrible Porcupines

[Scott P]

.....

[twotimer]

No I don't.

Why not??? They're detailed with what you'll need with nifty pics. Personally, I'll be happy to run thru one of them knowing what gear I specifically DON'T have to carry. It's better than "These canyons are tough, better bring the full arsenal"...and that's it.

To me, assuming that Mr. Walkingman was part of the crew...it's like he's trying to lay claim on the girl because she granted him a dance when some other dude ended up boinking her in the back of his car.

I reckon you think first dibs gets the prize, eh? Especially if you were there? Well, we'll see what sticks. Perhaps put them up on your website?

[Iceaxe]

To me, assuming that Mr. Walkingman was part of the crew...it's like he's trying to lay claim on the girl because she granted him a dance when some other dude ended up boinking her in the back of his car.

^^^THIS^^^

ROFLMAO

please just tell me the car was a jacked up Nova in primer with Creger mags and big ol' meats on the back.

[twotimer]

please just tell me the car was a jacked up Nova in primer with Creger mags and big ol' meats on the back.

Nope...those were for the rich kids. More like a 1972 Datsun pickup with a topper on the back.

Police officer tapping the window with his flashlight..."You OK in there, Miss?" Ah, the good ole' days...

[Canyonero]

But wild guess here, but he probably asked for beta and he wasn't given it or very little of it, etc.

Would you give him beta knowing how he treats others on the forum and how he treats canyons and other wild areas? Knowing his lack of respect for those who have passed before and his endangerment of access for those who will come later?

[Canyonero]

now with Bob publishing the beta (in the upcoming weeks), the worldwide web will now be referring them to his cat names and not "Amnesia" and the like.

Prediction: In 10 years no one will be using the cat names. Why not? Because they're dumb names.

[Canyonero]

In other words, who's toes are getting stepped on?

Yours are being stepped on. And mine. And everyone else who will canyoneer in the years to come who will no longer have the opportunity to do an exploration of these canyons without knowing if or how they've been done before. That's what is being lost here.

[Canyonero]

There is some prestige and a modest amount of satisfaction that goes with a route becoming known under a name you hung on it, which is basically what this little pissing match is all about..

Absolutely not. While many think the names are kind of dumb and that it is very disrespectful to not use the names the first explorers gave them as per convention in climbing and canyoneering for decades once you've been told what they are, that's really not what this is about. This is about prematurely ending the exploration era in an area of Southern Utah that has, up until very recently, been considered to be an area reserved for an exploration ethic. Just like some climbing areas have a "no bolting" ethic, only one of the dozen canyoneering areas in the state had, until very recently, been reserved as an exploration area.

Today, if someone has done many of the hard-core published canyons, they can go to Glen Canyon and explore. Sometimes they'll find signs of previous passage, but most of the time they won't because these explorers adopted a ghosting ethic- no sling, no rope grooves, and certainly no bolts. For the most part these explorers can have the same experience as the first explorers, and it is an awesome experience. I'm sad to think that in 30 years (or maybe 5 if Slot Machine has his way) that this experience will no longer be available. Instead, you'll be able to download an 8 page beta sheet from BlueGnome, complete with GPS points and a description of every turn, drop, and anchor, and it'll be no different than the experience you have in Pine Creek Canyon.

Kind of sad really. Not quite sad enough to start mailing ears, but certainly sad enough to point out to the canyoneering community what is being lost here.

[Slot Machine]

Would you give him beta knowing how he treats others on the forum...

I don't need it. Thanks for finally stopping by to lick my balls.

[twotimer]

Yours are being stepped on. And mine. And everyone else who will canyoneer in the years to come who will no longer have the opportunity to do an exploration of these canyons without knowing if or how they've been done before. That's what is being lost here.

Anyone that wants to go in completely clueless can do one simple thing...don't read anything about it.