Canyon Fire or Canyonero?

[nsahba]

Hey everybody,

I have been rock climbing for a pretty long time but I am pretty new to technical canyoneering and I am looking to buy my first rope. I've heard a lot of good things about Imlay ropes but I don't know if I should get the 8.3mm Canyon Fire or the 9.2mm Canyonero. I'm a pretty small guy (130lbs) so I was wondering if I would get stuck if I rappelled with a double strand of the Canyonero. Anyway, what do you guys think would be best considering my weight and the fact that I'll probably be rappelling double stranded through a figure-8 for a while? Also, how much rope should I buy just to start with?

Thanks in Advance!

[Sandstone Addiction]

Personally, if I were in your situation, I would buy 2 120' 8.3 Canyon Fires. I have 2 120's (not Imlay) and they have become my go to ropes as the majority of raps in S. Utah are less than 115' (although the Zion region in particular has quite a few routes that have longer raps).

My very first rope was a 230' length of 9.2 Canyonero and it was a great rope to start with as it's very durable and has lots of friction, but I'm a fatty canyoneer and without the Canyonwerks CRITR I needed all the friction I could get. One of my sons, he weighs about 90#'s, can not rap double strand on the Canyonero with a Pirana. We always biner blocked it so he can go single strand.

I do own a 75' length of 8.3 Canyon Fire and, with the CRITR, have grown to love this rope for the canyons with short raps. Very light and easy to carry.

[Iceaxe]

Buy a 200' rope. If you are new to canyoneering you will have two shorter ropes in the very near future.

[oldno7]

^^^^^
Very sage advise....

[qedcook]

Get the 8.3. I've bought both and the 9.2 is too stiff and thick. It's clunky and terrible to use and takes up tons of space. (I know I'm setting myself up for jokes...) Those types of canyon ropes don't rappel the same way as other ropes. The 8.3 mm canyon rope raps like a regular 9.8 mm rope.

[Slot Machine]

Allow me break your original post into a few separate questions.

Would I get stuck rapping double with a Canyonero?

Possibly, especially if your ropes are sandy. My wife (110 lbs) would have to force that type of rope, doubled-strand, through any device. You can always make a rope feed slower, but you can't always make a rope feed faster. If you don't know how to adjust your friction, then you are not a competent rappeller.

Anyway, what do you guys think would be best considering my weight and the fact that I'll probably be rappelling double stranded through a figure-8 for a while?

Canyon Fire, no doubt about it. Consider getting a CRITR to replace your 8. It is a wonderful device.

Also, how much rope should I buy just to start with?

Get 2 X 200. Cut one of them into 120 and 80. If you can find Canyon Fire on the spool, add a 40 footer to your collection.

When would you use a Canyonero, smarty pants?

I would only use it in canyons where ropes are likely to get cut on sharp rocks. I would never use a larger diameter rope to accommodate a bigger rappeller, instead I would teach them how to adjust friction.

[ratagonia]

Anyway, what do you guys think would be best considering my weight and the fact that I'll probably be rappelling double stranded through a figure-8 for a while?

Recommendation:
Get a modern rappel device (Pirana, Critr, ATS - given your weight, a Pirana would probably be best) and learn to rappel single strand. Join the 21st century.

Tom

[ratagonia]

When would you use a Canyonero, smarty pants?

I would only use it in canyons where ropes are likely to get cut on sharp rocks. I would never use a larger diameter rope to accommodate a bigger rappeller, instead I would teach them how to adjust friction.

Comment:
The rope cutting over an edge tendency goes up with the rappeller's weight. There seems to be a critical mass point where above a certain weight, the rope gets cut considerably more easily. For Canyon Fire, single strand, I put this weight at about 200 lbs (ie, the rappeller, in birthday suit, weighs 200 lbs. Field weight will usually be somewhat higher, we hope.)

Using a beefier, wider rope, that critical weight will be quite a bit higher. How high? I don't know. Canyonero is tougher than Canyon Fire. It is ONLY 10% heavier, but it seems to be 50% more cut resistant. Hard to measure.

So you COULD bring Canyonero when you go out with beefy friends, especially less-skilled beefy friends. A better way to manage it might be to have the beef-pups rappel double strand, while the lightweights rappel single strand. You give up the rescue benefits of single-strand; but those benefits are really only real when you possess and practice rescue skills. Which almost nobody has and does, anyway.

Tom

[Scott P]

beef-pups

Beef pups?

Does that make us big guys beef Saint Bernards?

[ratagonia]

Get the 8.3. I've bought both and the 9.2 is too stiff and thick. It's clunky and terrible to use and takes up tons of space. (I know I'm setting myself up for jokes...) Those types of canyon ropes don't rappel the same way as other ropes. The 8.3 mm canyon rope raps like a regular 9.8 mm rope.

Both
models of Imlay rope got softened up "a bit" in the last year.
@qedcook - What is a "regular" rope. You mean like a climbing rope?

Tom

[rick t]

I would not buy a 200 and cut it, The two 120"s idea is the best one, those two ropes will get you through Mystery, for instance, where one 200, or two 100s would not. when you start doing raps longer than 120, you will obviously need a longer rope, but I like the 220 better than just the 200. with a modern canyoneering rap device you will quickly learn to become comfortable on a single rope rap, even the 8.3.

[Iceaxe]

If you want to be able to canyoneer 99% of the trade routes on the Colorado Plateau buy a 200' rope and a 200' pull cord. Heaps is the only canyon on Climb-Utah.com that I can think of that could not be done with that rope combination. And as I mentioned earlier, you'll have a nice selection of shorter ropes in the near future.

[qedcook]

Both
models of Imlay rope got softened up "a bit" in the last year.
@qedcook - What is a "regular" rope. You mean like a climbing rope?

Tom

Yes, I meant a climbing rope because nsahba, the person who started the thread with the question, mentioned he has been climbing a long time. I love the 8.3 mm rope I have. I think it's perfect. I guess a bit of softening the rope won't change that too much. It might make the 9.2 bearable, but I had lots of bad experience with my older model. Like I said though, i love my 8.3 version. If it had never changed, I would be a happy canyoneering customer my whole life.

[ratagonia]

Yes, I meant a climbing rope because nsahba, the person who started the thread with the question, mentioned he has been climbing a long time. I love the 8.3 mm rope I have. I think it's perfect. I guess a bit of softening the rope won't change that too much. It might make the 9.2 bearable, but I had lots of bad experience with my older model. Like I said though, i love my 8.3 version. If it had never changed, I would be a happy canyoneering customer my whole life.

QED-
and others...
If your Imlay Canyon Gear rope has become unusable (as in, unusably stiff) through no fault of your own, I will (somewhat) happily replace it with a new rope. Please email CanyoneeringUSAOrders at gmail.com for details. Some fraction of these Canyonero ropes came out too stiff, which I consider to be a manufacturing defect.

Tom

[ScottM]

You give up the rescue benefits on single-strand; but those benefits are really only real when you possess and practice rescue skills. Which almost nobody has and does, anyway.

Tom

Tom, did you intend to say?: "You give up the rescue benefits of single-strand;"

Not attempting to correct you, just trying to make sure I understand the intent of your statement.

[ratagonia]

Tom, did you intend to say?: "You give up the rescue benefits of single-strand;" Not attempting to correct you, just trying to make sure I understand the intent of your statement.

Yes
thank you. Corrected on the original.

Tom

[ScottM]

Yes
thank you. Corrected on the original.

Tom