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Thread: Not Mindbender has some bolts

  1. #1

    Not Mindbender has some bolts

    Went thru today. Dropped into the last rappel area and the chockstone and webbing was gone. Was thinking this is going to be a pain, walked around the corner and someone has bolted the last drop. Whoever did it did a good job. If someone gets on their high horse and removes them there isn't much material there at this point to build an anchor. Had about 6 inches of water in that spot today.
    Mark

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  4. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    Went thru today. Dropped into the last rappel area and the chockstone and webbing was gone. Was thinking this is going to be a pain, walked around the corner and someone has bolted the last drop. Whoever did it did a good job. If someone gets on their high horse and removes them there isn't much material there at this point to build an anchor. Had about 6 inches of water in that spot today.
    Mark

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    I've been curious about things like this & would be interested on your take. If someone bolts a canyon and does a good job doing it, then should the bolts be left alone? I've also seen bolts removed that then look trashy so it raised the question, does it not cause just as much damage removing bolts after placing them? Especially considering in the future we will most likely run into the s as me problem again?

    Just questions that have crossed my mind. I have never bolted anything, but have definitely appreciated others work when I need it lol.

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  5. #3
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakotabelliston View Post
    I've been curious about things like this & would be interested on your take. If someone bolts a canyon and does a good job doing it, then should the bolts be left alone?
    Sometimes, but usually not.

    I've also seen bolts removed that then look trashy so it raised the question, does it not cause just as much damage removing bolts after placing them?
    Poor craftsmanship is poor craftsmanship, placing or removing.

    Especially considering in the future we will most likely run into the s as me problem again?
    It has been about 10 years since someone bolted that drop. ENTIRELY unnecessary.

    Just questions that have crossed my mind. I have never bolted anything, but have definitely appreciated others work when I need it lol.
    Whendoyouneedit?sorry,keyboardJUSTcrappedout...mor elater

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Whendoyouneedit?sorry,keyboardJUSTcrappedout...mor elater
    Sorry let me rephrase my statement. Not necessarily needed, but nice to have. Obviously there are always other options but sometimes that sturdy bolt can be nice to have when there is minimal to not anchoring. And you are correct that poor craftsmanship is to blame for improperly placed or removed bolts, but none the less I still see it frequently.

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  8. #5
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakotabelliston View Post
    Sorry let me rephrase my statement. Not necessarily needed, but nice to have. Obviously there are always other options but sometimes that sturdy bolt can be nice to have when there is minimal to not anchoring. And you are correct that poor craftsmanship is to blame for improperly placed or removed bolts, but none the less I still see it frequently.
    I have a serious concern that bolts for "convenience" leads to an expectation that when an anchor is not exceedingly conspicuous, that bolts will be in place. In every canyon, in every place.


    This is essentially the case in most canyons in Europe (or you jump or slide). The sport is entirely different there, because the environment is entirely different. But also the ethic is entirely different.


    May I suggest it would be more intelligent for YOU to deal with the canyon as it is, rather than install an artifact in a wilderness canyon. Developing the skills to come up with anchors when opportunities are sparse is an important skill for you and your team's safety, ongoing. Even when you are tired or cold.


    At Disneyland, you can expect everything to be set up for you.


    Tom

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  10. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I have a serious concern that bolts for "convenience" leads to an expectation that when an anchor is not exceedingly conspicuous, that bolts will be in place. In every canyon, in every place.


    This is essentially the case in most canyons in Europe (or you jump or slide). The sport is entirely different there, because the environment is entirely different. But also the ethic is entirely different.


    May I suggest it would be more intelligent for YOU to deal with the canyon as it is, rather than install an artifact in a wilderness canyon. Developing the skills to come up with anchors when opportunities are sparse is an important skill for you and your team's safety, ongoing. Even when you are tired or cold.


    At Disneyland, you can expect everything to be set up for you.


    Tom
    I respect that & makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

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  12. #7
    Or, since this exit rap is a 100 ft free , and there isn't shit there to make an anchor with, and the bolts are solid and well placed, maybe we should just leave them there and thank whoever put them in for their public service. Enough with the macho bullshit that all bolts are bad, it's going to get someone killed. If you are so highly skilled that you can build anchors out of nothing, or think so little of your life that you are comfortable doing triple digit raps off a single overhand knot chock in webbing in a questionable crack, (which I have seen at this location), go for it. Do your own thing. But don't be an unsafe elitist asshole and take it upon yourself to decree that everyone else who does the canyon has to do it the way YOU say, or they can't do it at all, by chopping these bolts. Since the past actions of the small but extremely vocal and virulent anti bolt minority have not shown reason nor logic to be their strong points, I fear that this issue will unfortunately be ultimately settled in court, following the needless death of an innocent canyoneer. It need not be so.

  13. #8
    Wow... I haven't seen or heard the word macho used in a long time. Thanks for bringing it back into vogue!

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  15. #9
    1) So Rick T is basically saying that a canyoneer has a "right" to set bolts when and where he/she choses. Which seems odd if said canyoneer does not own the rock in which the bolt is set.

    2) If bolts are set, then the descent is basically a Disneyland event, as Tom suggests.

    Not that I don't like bolts on occasion, - but there are some issues involved with the subject.

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  17. #10
    This has absolutely nothing to do with being "macho", and has everything to do with respect. To pass the canyons to the next generation in the same condition they were shared with you preserves the canyons history and the foresight the senior canyoneering community had to preserve a select area.

    I've been through this with Rick before. He basically believes a canyoneer has the right to set bolts wherever he pleases. But another canyoneer does not have the right to remove bolts, which I've always found hypocritical.

    Long ago the canyoneering community decided to attempt and keep the Roost bolt free to preserve the experience for future generations.

    Yes, doing canyons without bolts is a big step up in skill level, which by diffenition means the canyons are more dangerous.

    So my suggestion is if you don't want to except the additional risk go play eleswhere. It's not like there is a shortage of bolted canyons. Natural canyons are becoming a rare beast.

    If we, meaning the senior canyoneering community, had of bolted these canyons 20 years ago when the popularity of canyoneering in the U.S. first began to skyrocket, most of you would have never experienced a canyon in its true natural state. Please respect the canyons and canyoneers that have gone before you.

  18. #11
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Pictures of the bolts would be useful. If someone goes through or already has them.

    Thanks.

    Tom

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  20. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Experience a canyon in its true natural state.
    Interesting argument I hadn't heard before. I've been canyoneering about 12-15 years (just so you know my background and perspective). I'm usually in favor of keeping bolts (even though I've never needed to place one), but the point you make is true. There is a greater sense of adventure and accomplishment doing a natural anchor canyon (at the right time). Building your canyon resume and skills and descending more and more challenging canyons is part of the long-term joys of canyoneering. You can't experience that if every canyon is Disneyland bolted. I might be partially altering my opinion about this subject. Thanks for the insight.

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  22. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    So my suggestion is if you don't want to except the additional risk go play eleswhere. It's not like there is a shortage of bolted canyons. Natural canyons are becoming a rare beast.
    Exactly so. Well said.

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  24. #14
    On another note, it's illegal to place bolts here as its part of the Dirty Devil/Robber's Roost Special Recreation Management area (SRMA). They will be removed.

  25. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    If we, meaning the senior canyoneering community, had of bolted these canyons 20 years ago when the popularity of canyoneering in the U.S. first began to skyrocket, most of you would have never experienced a canyon in its true natural state. Please respect the canyons and canyoneers that have gone before you.
    Not to harp on the point too much, but as I thought about this last weekend, I finally got the no-bolts argument. I always thought anti-bolt people were saying: preserve the canyon for the canyon's sake. (And I'm sure some people do argue that). But the argument Iceaxe makes is: preserve the canyon for the canyoneers' sake. Make sure it is still adventurous for future canyoneers. That resonates with me, because the sense of adventure and isolation and exploration I get in Robbers Roost and Escalante is what makes me enjoy those areas so much more than Zion. But on the flip side, Zion is still tons of fun. It's a good argument that some areas/canyons are best for beginners so the canyon is more safe/Disneyland in its adventure, while other areas/canyons are better to preserve in their more natural/adventurous state in order to challenge the canyoneer to become better/smarter/more knowledgebale.

    With that said, I'm probably not swinging all the way to the 'no bolts ever' side of things.

  26. #16
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Not sure if folks understand completely--BUT--if a canyon is bolted entirely, or in part, there is no requirement to use said bolts.

    Just sayin', one can always up their game by doing bolted canyons, sans bolts, weird, huh......
    I'm not Spartacus


    Boycotting imlay canyon gear because I value access

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  28. #17
    just doing a little holiday reading, and ran across this great quote from Tom, which perfectly fits this discussion about bolts, and the tendency of zealots to want to chop bolts because THEY can do the canyon without them, so they must be superflous-


    ratagonia

    Messages:2,974Likes:3,272Location:Mount Carmel, Utah


    Canyonero said:
    The truth is I could have cut ALL the sling out of the canyon since it was almost all fiddleable.
    Toms reply-
    Removing webbing anchors from a regularly-done canyon because YOU have the tools to do without is not cool. C'mon Canyonero, you know this cac! But, there is every reason to remove excessive webbing, and webbing draped around anchors you don't think are safe.

    Or perhaps you are a member of the Church of the Sacred Sling?


    11/23/15 canyon collective



    but removing bolts for the same reason is cool?

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  30. #18
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick t View Post

    but removing bolts for the same reason is cool?
    Yup.

    Good to see you are finally "getting it".


  31. #19
    Descending a canyon clean is a different, more creative experience. You spend your time thinking, What is the next problem and how am I going to get down it? rather than thinking, Where is the next anchor and why can't I find it on the &*!@ GPS?

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