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Thread: webbing length for talon hook

  1. #1

    webbing length for talon hook

    I would appreciate any recommendations on length of webbing to attach to talon hook for pothole escape.

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  4. #2
    I have a loop on mine that hangs down about 6". I can clip anything I desire to the loop.

  5. #3
    For Imlay, 6" loop of 1/2" tubular webbing and an etrier.


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  7. #4
    The webbing is used just to attach a aider/etrier. Doesn't need to be very long. Like others 6 inches would be great

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  8. #5
    Also, if going anywhere but imlay, hooking is NOT an acceptable pothole escape method.


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  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootboy View Post
    Also, if going anywhere but imlay, hooking is NOT an acceptable pothole escape method.


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    Where do you come up with this stuff? There is no such rule or ethic regarding hooks with Imlay or any other canyon. Drilling or chipping holes is frowned upon but nothing wrong with hooks.

    I often carry hooks when doing difficult canyons and I use them occasionally. Hooks are just another tool in the toolbox that can be very useful if you know how to use them effectively.

  10. #7

    webbing length for talon hook

    That's what I meant. I carry hooks too. But not a drill.

    It is clear that the OP is unfamiliar with hooks and the technique.

    It can reasonably be inferred that the OP is under the impression that a long length of webbing is all one needs on a hook.

    I say that because I've met quite a few people who have only canyoned in Zion and they think that drilling and hooking is de facto everywhere. I've met a startling number of people that think you throw hooks to escape potholes as well. There is a remarkable number of people who don't have the first clue about pothole escaping. Just steering a likely newb, that's all.

    I was simply clarifying the point that in Imlay hooking the drilled holes is SOP but that other places don't have and don't need drilled hook holes. If you go into a canyon expecting there to be hook holes, or to make your own, you shouldn't be there.

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  12. #8
    Here are some of the hooks I carry with webbing attached.


  13. #9
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Interesting...

    There are a few troublesome (when water is low) keepers in Heaps that have drilled holes in them, but other than that, hooks are used in Imlay and that is about it.

    I used to carry a pika Ibis hook, but in running about 100 canyons, I found a place to use it exactly once. I just don't find it useful. Perhaps it is a matter of style more than anything - then again, I have taken freshman physics, and I am extremely dubious of the point-pressure strength of sandstone.

    Most of the uses of hooks that I have seen are drilled holes. generally, if the feature is big enough to get a hook on, then it can be used as a handhold (probably by someone stronger than me) and climbed directly.

    So I would say - yes, bring two talons for Imlay and Heaps. Otherwise, of extremely dubious value. Would be the LAST thing I reach for, usually plenty of other better anchor possibilities are available.

    Shane - I am curious as to what canyons you have found them useful in???

    Tom

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  15. #10
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    16" of 1/2" tubular webbing seems to work well, tied as shown in Shane's pic.

    Here is what the CanyoneeringUSA webstore says about the Talon:

    A really versatile hook, perfect for your pothole escape kit. Three different hook heads fit small to large features, and the smallest one fits in 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch holes well. Tripod base for stability. I include a short sling of 1/2" tubular. Bring TWO for your next trip to Heaps.


    Designer: Andrew Mclean
    Weight: 48 grams or 1.7 ounces
    More Info: Black Diamond


    When used, the Talon is used for "Bat hooking", which means it is placed in drilled holes. In Heaps and Imlay, the method of last resort (the Nuclear Option) for getting out of potholes is to drill 3/8" holes about 1/2" deep and use the Talon in them.


    Why ONLY Heaps and Imlay? - because this is where it is traditional, and this is where there are already holes in place. Contrary to popular rumor, holes last a long time. The holes on potholes in Imlay, for instance, are at least 10 years old. They may occasionally need to be "cleaned up" - drilled a little deeper, which can probably be done with just the drill bit and holder, without benefit of a hammer. Elsewhere on the Colorado Plateau, throwing bags and partner assists have proved to be the most effective method for escaping potholes.


    Hooking natural features has not proven to be a useful technique. It seems that anything you can hook, you can probably grasp with your hand, for the short, relatively low-angle pothole exits found in our sandstone canyons. Or, they are just WAY TOO BIG, and drilling bat holes would be a 4 or 5 hour endeavor - time better spent working on throwing stuff.

    http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com...tegory=2490793


    Surprised your Talon did not come with the webbing on it. Did you buy it at Harbor Freight or something???


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  17. #11
    Thanks for the pictures. I'm not a newbie, but I haven't been through many potholes. I just took a pothole escape course where we used talons with about 15 feet of webbing to hook features on non-pothole side of lip to escape. Sounds like people don't use them very often, but its a light, small option worth carrying I suppose.

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  19. #12
    To emphasize what Tom said. I can think of 2 instances where I used a hook on natural features to escape a pothole. Mainly because I wanted to for fun, not because it was the easiest or most effective method. And that is having done literally dozens of canyons with multiple true, keeper potholes.

    I have rapped off of hooks exactly twice.


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  20. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Why ONLY Heaps and Imlay? - because this is where it is traditional, and this is where there are already holes in place. Contrary to popular rumor, holes last a long time. The holes on potholes in Imlay, for instance, are at least 10 years old. They may occasionally need to be "cleaned up" - drilled a little deeper, which can probably be done with just the drill bit and holder, without benefit of a hammer. Elsewhere on the Colorado Plateau, throwing bags and partner assists have proved to be the most effective method for escaping potholes.
    I've never seen Heaps or Imlay in hard condition. Are the hooks mandatory, or can you throw/assist your way out of those? As I imagine those last 20+ holes in Imlay in lower water conditions, it would seem they could all be relatively easily thrown, no?, although you might have to bring the sand quite a ways.

  21. #14
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canyonero View Post
    I've never seen Heaps or Imlay in hard condition. Are the hooks mandatory, or can you throw/assist your way out of those? As I imagine those last 20+ holes in Imlay in lower water conditions, it would seem they could all be relatively easily thrown, no?, although you might have to bring the sand quite a ways.
    Many of the holes in Imlay and especially Heaps do not yield to throwing. They have no place to throw to - it is flat past them. The first big keeper in Imlay (Big Bertha) comes to mind.

    So I consider hooks mandatory on an Imlay trip.

    Did it once where I thought Imlay was full, so I packed carelessly and only came up with one hook. Brendan did an awesome job of hooking out of potholes, using exactly one hook. The kid's got talent.

    Tom

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  23. #15
    I've generally rigged my hooks with as short of a loop of webbing that'll accept a carabiner as possible. I'd rather extend with a alpine aider and have the clip in point as short as possible.

    I've never been a fan of the talon for sandstone. Like Tom mentioned, sandstone doesn't take to most hooks very well. I think AM designed the talon mostly for LCC or Yosemite-esque granite. Its a hook with nearly no throw (or, "hook"). I prefer the Cliffhanger's bigger bro: the Grappling Hook.

    My hook kit is two Grappling hooks, and, a pair of Cliffhangers custom filed to fit snugly in a 3/8" drilled hole. Also have an older Pika bat hook (split tip really bites into a drilled hole) and a couple of the bigger hooks too. Sold my Fish hooks (too heavy).

    Yeah, I don't use 'em much. And...that's ok. But, have hooked out of Heaps in low water...easily done...

    If you're an SLC local, and, you want to see how hooks can shine on harder rock, there's a tall boulder across from the Gate Buttress that's on the far side of the creek that has minute features that take to hooks. Crazy what you can stand on with a tiny piece of metal. Top rope recommended!

  24. #16
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    I've never been a fan of the talon for sandstone. Like Tom mentioned, sandstone doesn't take to most hooks very well. I think AM designed the talon mostly for LCC or Yosemite-esque granite. Its a hook with nearly no throw (or, "hook"). I prefer the Cliffhanger's bigger bro: the Grappling Hook.
    Andrew McLean designed the original Talon before working for BD, for granite of Squamish and Yosemite. The revised BD Talon was designed mostly for Yosemite and tested in Little Cottonwood Cyn (I think), and one of the three hooks is specifically designed for bat hooking ie, hooking in drilled holes. Certainly seems to have enough throw (clearance) to use in the drilled holes in Imlay.

    Tom

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