Grotto canyon by accident

[Glenn]

Well, the "troll" not only seems to have a pretty good knowledge of the area (at least until dropping into the wrong canyon) and they signed it "CP"

Clearly an intent at misdirection at the very least.

[Glenn]

I did not post the TR nor was I a participant in the epic it describes. Considering that I've not posted on Bogley in years, it's sort of creepy that someone chose me as the subject of their project. Should I be flattered or appalled?

Courtney Purcell

Since your signature points to a non-working website, sounds like that backs up your point about not having posted in years.

[Scott P]

Was this a troll?

Perhaps, but trolls usually don't delete their post after criticism. In fact they post in order to cause a stir.

[2065toyota]

We were in Spry last year eating lunch and heard a loud noise behind us, a solo guy comes walking out of the crack and had also just went off the end of his rope which was 15' short. We spend a while trying to help him get it down with sticks and branches.

Another very stupid decision. He was soloing the canyon, knew the rope was too short for the rap when he started off from the top, and had 200' more rope in his pack.

I have no idea what people are thinking sometimes

[Scott P]

If this is a troll (and there is a good chance that it is), it is one of the most successful trolls I've ever seen in a forum.

Thus far, the post has:

1. Created a bunch of shock from a seemingly incredible story.

2. Started a debate about shaming.

3. Caused Tom to call a public figure a dumbass.

4. Caused Shane to call Tom an asshat.

5. Caused some to believe that the highly experienced Courtney Purcell was the person who the mishap happened to and who would make a bunch of rookie mistakes and would post about it publicly.

6. Caused Sombeech, one of the Bogley moderators to ask people to be nicer to new members.

7. Caused the well known Courtney (who is missed), and who hasn't posted on Bogley since 2011 to come out and post again.

8. Caused a spillover discussion on FB.

9. Created credibility about not being a troll by deleting the original post.

If this is a troll, it was certainly a well executed and successful one.

[Scott P]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

[alphasteve42]

Fun thread to read... The OP is my close friend. I suggested he post here as a lessons learned and to see if anyone saw or recovered his line. Guess not.

[hank moon]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

Another "dropped into Grotto by accident" tale from the Collective

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...d-learn.18983/

[Scott P]

Another "dropped into Grotto by accident" tale from the Collective

Yes, I have read that. That's why I'm asking above. That report makes it sound like a 60 meter rope is not even close to enough? Tom also says 260 feet for the rappel.

[Scott P]

The post may be legit. There is another public figure with the initials CP and with the name "Court" in his name that also frequents Zion.

[twotimer]

I think it's legit...it just had a "troll" feel to it. I just couldn't understand why he put it up in the first place. Surely he knew he'd get barked at...it was like a legit/troll combo.

I think he was happy that he didn't force himself to sit on a ledge with this thumb in his mouth waiting for SAR. Personally, I probably would have done the same thing...considering getting down was actually functional...but I would have walked out of there thanking my lucky stars and kept my mouth shut about it.

[Sombeech]

Fun thread to read... The OP is my close friend. I suggested he post here as a lessons learned and to see if anyone saw or recovered his line. Guess not.

Hi Steve, interesting to hear OP is a real person with a real story, too bad some of us have the terrible manners we criticize others for displaying. It would benefit the community at large, not just bogley, if Court would reply here and clarify a few things, simultaneously correcting some harsh criticism received.

Thanks for posting.

[harness man]

Periodically we get 'clever' individuals who ignore manufacturer's WARNINGS
and then go out and epic (or die).
Tom is a canyoneering rope manufacturer and distributor.
I am a canyoneering rope distributor and rappel device manufacturer.
What seems like over reaction might be an attempt to save this individuals life by encouraging them NOT to attempt this again,
AND, more importantly, speaking to the broader community, that 'ultra-lighting' by rappelling on 6mm of anything is extremely dangerous/ and therefore
INCREDIBLY DUMB to do on purpose.
And I think the poster knows this.
The thin cords when sandy also slice up Zion sandstone pretty easily

[hesse15]

Hi Steve, interesting to hear OP is a real person with a real story, too bad some of us have the terrible manners we criticize others for displaying. It would benefit the community at large, not just bogley, if Court would reply here and clarify a few things, simultaneously correcting some harsh criticism received.

Thanks for posting.

I"think everybody does mistakes but there are 3 kind of people
1 person die
2 person survive and learn and does not repeat same mistakes
3 person survive believe is a super smart ass and the weekend after take bunch of newbies to experience the same trill.


lately I am encountering lot of #3 and usually are the more sensitive to any form of criticism. but not only they are dangerous for themselves but usually tend to take newbies desperate to go canyoneering and putting their lives at risk. I think that is why Tom posted that way. those people are dangerous and need to be known.

Sent from my Venue 7 3730 using Tapatalk

[Rob L]

I'm astounded by the last two posts by Harness Man (whom up to now I respected) and hesse15, and the general sense here that people willing to confess openly to errors should be lambasted in such a way.

If this was a group around a table: "Hi, my name is Rob and I messed up in a Canyon" we'd have a poke and a laugh and then we'd all seriously learn.

In this sport, the most difficult thing to learn is to learn from other people's mistakes. The loss of the OP has reduced this community's ability to learn, and that is not good.

Rob

[Brian in SLC]

In this sport, the most difficult thing to learn is to learn from other people's mistakes. The loss of the OP has reduced this community's ability to learn, and that is not good.

Rob

Concur!

The loss of the opportunity for everyone to learn from this is a bummer. We've all done less-than-intelligent things. We learn and move on, and, when you share these mistakes, then the community gets a reminder of best practices, etc.

Too bad there's not a continued, constructive dialog. Heavy sigh.

[TommyBoy]

@Rob L I think for the most part the tone has been just about right, there have been a few that were rude and I agree that probably isn't the most productive way of teaching, but most were stern yet fair. What the OP did WAS stupid, however what's worse is he didn't come off as acknowledging how bad it was in his post. Maybe he did feel bad about it and I just didn't get that from the post and if so I'm sorry. He didn't just make one mistake though, he made a series of bad decisions that ultimately could have gone a lot worse.

The community can and should learn from the mistakes of others, but part of that learning includes the scolding of those who know better so that those less experienced who are reading understand just how bad his decision making was that day. To give him a slap on the wrist and a "don't do that again now" lessens the severity of his mistake which is not in the best interests of the community.

[alphasteve42]

I would love to answer any specifics about the mishap. I appreciate the calls for a kinder tone. One can express concern with out a scolding. Imho. Trust me we value honest and informed construct critism. How the 60m line got close enough to "safely" drop on the last rap I am unsure. I'll ask. I know he made some natural anchors somewhere. Important to note, he did not know he was in the wrong canyon until he was beyond a point of no return. Note. The route he followed began with the start of Spy. To those that are critical of the thin line your concern is noted and appreciated. (I have rapped on this same line many times.) For my own info may I ask of an example of a 6mm line failure when used doubled up and not due to hardware errors or abrasion, I am saying tensile failure?

[TommyBoy]

I would love to answer any specifics about the mishap. I appreciate the calls for a kinder tone.

@alphasteve42 I am a little curious for more details on his thoughts when he was looking for Hidden. His post made him sound rather uncertain of where he was and if he was even at Hidden at all. This is what I think was his biggest mistake of the day, as a solo canyoneer uncertain of which canyon he was at he should have just headed down the trail.

[hank moon]

One subtext of this thread: how best to alert/ward and/or educate the unwary when sketchy stuff pops up that might be emulated.

Two basic approaches: bad teacher / good teacher. The bad teacher attempts to frighten via scolding warning, etc. without educating. This might be termed an authoritarian approach. Quick and dirty. The good teacher presents as clearly and reasonably as possible and invites an exchange in which productive learning takes place. Unfortunately forum dynamics do not often encourage or sustain this type of dialogue.

It would be great to see the OP restore his post, with added commentary about his inner experience and the riskier-than-normal nature of the descent. I see no value in continuing to scold, or discuss prior scolding. Some have scolded the OP, and scolders have scolded the original scolders, etc. Is there any value to more of that? There may be value in discussing the value of scolding, but perhaps those interested in that topic could start a new thread.

hank