Grotto canyon by accident

[kiwi_outdoors]

this thread is a good forum to air out a few things - the OP came close to being a death statistic. canyoneering is lethal from time to time, and we need to keep that in mind. For instance , the first and last wet canyons I and my wife did have both killed people.

[qedcook]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but didn't Slot Machine post about accidentally going down Messin' Around instead of Foolin' Around last year, and no one got mad at him? Double standard much???

[hesse15]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but didn't Slot Machine post about accidentally going down Messin' Around instead of Foolin' Around last year, and no one got mad at him? Double standard much???

one thing is doing mistakes and we all do them .. one think is brag about doing mistakes and be arrogant about it like is the new cool way to do canyons!!!! that is what is criticised here for whom still miss the point not the mistakes!!!!

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[twotimer]

Wow, talk about an epic reaction to a first post! Sorry to say it gentlemen, but it seems to me like there's some pent up something goin' on...like you all (or most, at least) have been hanging out here a bit too much.

I can only imagine that Court is thinking as he's looking in on the mayhem created...not by him, really...and thinking "What the heck is this?" I know I am!

What is all this talk about learning something from his post? He got lost, bailed down some chute, got lucky with the raps and walked out of there. Tom calls him an idiot, he's ashamed and deletes his post, a friend of his comes in to say that he just wants his rope back and (I suppose) like somebody's going to go pluck it out for him.

Y'know, on second though, it does have a bit of a stinky smell to it, right? Ha! let's see if this thing gets pushed to 8 pages! Hey Court, I hope you get your rope back.

[Scott P]

One subtext of this thread: how best to alert/ward and/or educate the unwary when sketchy stuff pops up that might be emulated.

Two basic approaches: bad teacher / good teacher. The bad teacher attempts to frighten via scolding warning, etc. without educating. This might be termed an authoritarian approach. Quick and dirty. The good teacher presents as clearly and reasonably as possible and invites an exchange in which productive learning takes place. Unfortunately forum dynamics do not often encourage or sustain this type of dialogue.

It would be great to see the OP restore his post, with added commentary about his inner experience and the riskier-than-normal nature of the descent. I see no value in continuing to scold, or discuss prior scolding. Some have scolded the OP, and scolders have scolded the original scolders, etc. Is there any value to more of that? There may be value in discussing the value of scolding, but perhaps those interested in that topic could start a new thread.

hank

The only thing I wanted to say is that I agree with the above.

[ratagonia]

I"think everybody does mistakes but there are 3 kind of people
1 person die
2 person survive and learn and does not repeat same mistakes
3 person survive believe is a super smart ass and the weekend after take bunch of newbies to experience the same trill.


lately I am encountering lot of #3 and usually are the more sensitive to any form of criticism. but not only they are dangerous for themselves but usually tend to take newbies desperate to go canyoneering and putting their lives at risk. I think that is why Tom posted that way. those people are dangerous and need to be known.

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Hesse has proposed a new "Dumbass Scale".

Type 1 Dumbass

Type 2 Dumbass

Type 3 Dumbass being the ones you really otta keep your eye out for.

T

[ratagonia]

For the record I have nothing against soloing, I have done it countless times. When going solo you just have to understand the risks are much higher and proceed accordingly. Solo is the same old game but with different rules and penalties.

This was not your troll, Shane?

It has all your usual fingerprints: on the edge of plausibility, pulling in recent themes, and getting an asshat reaction from me. Sockpuppets, etc. Oh, and you are going to deny it, thus providing proof for all good conspiracy theorists...

Perhaps you are also the "friend" who "confirms" the reliability of the OP.

The same post was quickly deleted on the Kollective. Presumably because the OP would be IP'd and called out pretty quick.

Jus' Sayin'...

Tom

[ratagonia]

Ha. Both obvious (and apparently successful) trolling. My money's on Tom.

Quick hike up and down Twin Brothers, plus Mtn of the Sun and Deertrap S Buttress prior to Hidden? Yeah... I can think of few people capable of that kind of day. Much less with the route familiarity to complete it in said day. Actually, sounds kind of fun.

PS he would've had to ascend the 6 mm to get out of Spry on the way back from TB. He would've had to downclimb Twin Brothers without a rap. Doable, but very sketchy.

Coming from Deertrap, the navigation difference between Grotto and Hidden Canyon is VERY conspicuous. Either a clear indication that this is a fabrication, OR a clear indication that the OP is rather challenged in many ways.

Tom

[harness man]

Hi Rob L and Folks,
Replies concerning the tone of my posts:
Points well taken!
Most of us, including some of the best canyoneers I know have made foolish mistakes (usually during the first season or two), survived,
learned from them, and moved on.
What troubles me most about the original post is the use of 6mm cord.
So lets talk about it.
Alpha Steve, do you mind sharing what brand and model of 6mm rope you have been using?
And what device you are using to rappel with?
Todd

[ratagonia]

Having not been to Grotto Canyon, is the story even possible? Could you get to within a few feet of the bottom of the last drop with a single 60m rope?

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...-june-21-2014/

There are several 200 foot drops in the canyon. Intermediate anchors may be possible on these raps.

The mid-canyon long rap of 260 feet CAN be done off to the side using shorter raps, as Mr. Thompson and Crew did on their debacle.

The FINAL rappel I carefully measured at 250 feet. However, that is to standable flat ground. The bottom of the rap is sloped and slippery with goo, so, maybe... but ... hard to believe.

I'm still in the troll camp. Ties together too many themes to not... most likely.

Tom

[Court]

I figure I might as well reply to what has been said.

I do not like contention and find that it is often far better to avoid it all together than waste my time caring about others calling me names. Hence the silence and deletion.

First off, thanks to all who are genuine in their concern and offered kind words. I agree with most of what has been said.

My main mistake was spending hours beforehand pouring over beta for the Twin Brothers/MOS/DeerTrap linkup and not much effort was put into researching the approach to Hidden. The scrambling was what I thought would be the crux of the day and the canyon would be a pleasant and quick descent. I had pictures on my phone of maps but what really got me was the trail on my map and the actual trail were different. I guess they re-did the trails up there sometime in the last 5 years or something.

I stood at the head of the correct canyon and it was a big drop with not even a footprint anywhere nearby which made me think I was at the wrong canyon. All I knew about Hidden was that there was no rap longer than 100' and lots of fun downclimbing. I thought that the start would be obvious and easy to locate. My mistake that I recognize.

As I walked over to Grotto canyon it was a much more mellow start which seemed right and there were anchors and many rappels that were exactly 100'. Seemed right to me. I didn't recognize my blunder until I got towards the end and could see the angels landing trail across the canyon.

I only came up short on the first rap in the big exit sequence by 10' and was able to swing over to a tree and set up another rappel. No idea where Tom did a 200' rap in the middle of the canyon...maybe down a bunch of low angle stuff that was easily downclimbed...

Then obviously I came up short on the last rap. I set up a single line rappel of 200' with a 4'' diameter log tied to the end of the rope as a safety. When I started over the edge I could see that it was short but not sure how short. Didn't look like much.

Timeout.

I could wait all night for SAR to come get me or I could take a chance and WORST CASE SCENARIO hang on the end of my rope waiting for SAR to come. I really didn't want to wait all night and I didn't want to put out the SAR if I didn't have to. So I chose to chance it and rap down. As I got closer I could see that it was close enough that I could drop off and not die so thats what I did. 10-15' is my guess.

My purpose of the post was to
1. inform people to not make the same mistake when trying to do Hidden from the top. Looks like others have blundered in the same way. If I had stumbled upon their reports in my planning I surely would not have made the same mistake.
2. Hook someone up with a rope or potentially get it back.

As for rappeling on a 6mm. It was actually a 5mm. MBS-5000 lbs. The brand is New England. I know it is obviously risky as far as abrasions and potentially cutting your rope but tensile strength is not an issue. People regularly use 5mm cord to rappel. Maybe not in canyons but in mountaineering and skiing it is very common. I've rapped on this rope dozens of times with no issues or damage. If I am just doing a normal canyon with a group I would bring a thicker rope. But when I have to carry the rope all by myself and the canyon isn't the main objective of the day I opt for the 'light and fast' mentality and bring the skinny line.

I don't really see where I almost killed myself but I do see what went wrong and I internalized those things and will incorporate them into future outings.

I do not enjoy taking beginners out and teaching them so no need to worry about me teaching risky practices.

I know that I am in no way immune to risks and accident. But know that I understand what I am doing and I accept the inherent risks.

Sorry to Purcell. Didn't mean to implicate you. Thanks for writing the newer edition of your book. It fuels a lot of my Zion adventures.

Not sure why people get so upset. Maybe because their income depends on this sport...

If people feel the need to call names, swear, and criticize, then I won't be a part of the conversation.

[harness man]

Hi Court
Thank you for rejoining the thread and sharing technical details.
Maxim sells this cord for slinging chocks or for use as a climbing cordalette.
It is not intended to rappel on.
New England Maxim cord 5mm loses about half of its theoretical 5,000 lb. breaking strength after a (rather small) number of flex cycles that one would generate while rappelling.
Once you tie a knot in it, you lose another 40%.
Now you are down to 1500 lbs., without taking abrasion into account (I have not yet descended a Zion canyon that did not have abrasion).
1500 lbs (about the tensile for 3 strands of paracord) is a terribly slim margin for rappelling.
That is why, after so many tragic canyoneering deaths last year, I have reacted so strongly to your post.
It troubles me very much that any one would 'promote by example' what I perceive to be a very dangerous practice that is not sanctioned by the manufacturer.
Best
Todd

[jman]

Random Q for @Court:

Are you the same Cort P and Alphasteve that have completed the W.U.R.L. (Wasatch Ultimate Ridge Linkup), by chance??

[TommyBoy]

@Court thanks for coming back and for the extra detail on thoughts, planning, ect... For future reference (and hopefully it won't be needed), but if you make a mistake and post about it, the finger waggers around here are usually nicer if you put in some detail about your thoughts and a self critique of where you went wrong, or ask for a critique if you're not sure. It lets us know that you have thought about it and you do understand that you messed up and you're trying to learn. I think most people that come here are of that mindset already, but I try not to assume someone online is smarter than they are so that there are no tragedies of miscommunication.

[hesse15]

I figure I might as well reply to what has been said.

I do not like contention and find that it is often far better to avoid it all together than waste my time caring about others calling me names. Hence the silence and deletion.

First off, thanks to all who are genuine in their concern and offered kind words. I agree with most of what has been said.

My main mistake was spending hours beforehand pouring over beta for the Twin Brothers/MOS/DeerTrap linkup and not much effort was put into researching the approach to Hidden. The scrambling was what I thought would be the crux of the day and the canyon would be a pleasant and quick descent. I had pictures on my phone of maps but what really got me was the trail on my map and the actual trail were different. I guess they re-did the trails up there sometime in the last 5 years or something.

I stood at the head of the correct canyon and it was a big drop with not even a footprint anywhere nearby which made me think I was at the wrong canyon. All I knew about Hidden was that there was no rap longer than 100' and lots of fun downclimbing. I thought that the start would be obvious and easy to locate. My mistake that I recognize.

As I walked over to Grotto canyon it was a much more mellow start which seemed right and there were anchors and many rappels that were exactly 100'. Seemed right to me. I didn't recognize my blunder until I got towards the end and could see the angels landing trail across the canyon.

I only came up short on the first rap in the big exit sequence by 10' and was able to swing over to a tree and set up another rappel. No idea where Tom did a 200' rap in the middle of the canyon...maybe down a bunch of low angle stuff that was easily downclimbed...

Then obviously I came up short on the last rap. I set up a single line rappel of 200' with a 4'' diameter log tied to the end of the rope as a safety. When I started over the edge I could see that it was short but not sure how short. Didn't look like much.

Timeout.

I could wait all night for SAR to come get me or I could take a chance and WORST CASE SCENARIO hang on the end of my rope waiting for SAR to come. I really didn't want to wait all night and I didn't want to put out the SAR if I didn't have to. So I chose to chance it and rap down. As I got closer I could see that it was close enough that I could drop off and not die so thats what I did. 10-15' is my guess.

My purpose of the post was to
1. inform people to not make the same mistake when trying to do Hidden from the top. Looks like others have blundered in the same way. If I had stumbled upon their reports in my planning I surely would not have made the same mistake.
2. Hook someone up with a rope or potentially get it back.

As for rappeling on a 6mm. It was actually a 5mm. MBS-5000 lbs. The brand is New England. I know it is obviously risky as far as abrasions and potentially cutting your rope but tensile strength is not an issue. People regularly use 5mm cord to rappel. Maybe not in canyons but in mountaineering and skiing it is very common. I've rapped on this rope dozens of times with no issues or damage. If I am just doing a normal canyon with a group I would bring a thicker rope. But when I have to carry the rope all by myself and the canyon isn't the main objective of the day I opt for the 'light and fast' mentality and bring the skinny line.

I don't really see where I almost killed myself but I do see what went wrong and I internalized those things and will incorporate them into future outings.

I do not enjoy taking beginners out and teaching them so no need to worry about me teaching risky practices.

I know that I am in no way immune to risks and accident. But know that I understand what I am doing and I accept the inherent risks.

Sorry to Purcell. Didn't mean to implicate you. Thanks for writing the newer edition of your book. It fuels a lot of my Zion adventures.

Not sure why people get so upset. Maybe because their income depends on this sport...

If people feel the need to call names, swear, and criticize, then I won't be a part of the conversation.

OK if you do not take beginners, kids or dogs you are an adult so is less concern to me what you do. Sorry for jumping on your case but I was worried .

Sent from my LENNY using Tapatalk

[hesse15]

Hesse has proposed a new "Dumbass Scale".

Type 1 Dumbass

Type 2 Dumbass

Type 3 Dumbass being the ones you really otta keep your eye out for.

T

No only 3 is dumbass the other 1 and 2 are just humans

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[Court]

Yes Jman.

Thanks Todd. That is very insightful info about rope strength.

[twotimer]

Court...your OP had just a bit of wham bam to it, that's why some (me too...kinda) thought it might not be real. Also, I've been around here for quite a while and knew that at least Tom would soon show up foaming at the mouth, something I mentioned earlier was nearly all of us have had him go sideways for one reason or another. Don't let it bother ya, it's typical.

With that said, that was one heck of an entrance!

Look, virtually everyone who doubted you or got snarky came it with the likes on your post...an apology of sorts. Don't hold them to task for it...people around here are pretty cool...some are just a bit, touchy.

Also, like I said earlier, I would have done the exact same thing you did. Screw waiting for rescue. Exhaust all options first...I think you did a fine job of getting yourself out of there. I say you get kudos for the balls factor alone. Glad you came back in and detailed everyone out.

[kiwi_outdoors]

Good first post - brutally honest
Good 2nd post - same honesty!

Welcome aboard.

[ratagonia]

Court...your OP had just a bit of wham bam to it, that's why some (me too...kinda) thought it might not be real. Also, I've been around here for quite a while and knew that at least Tom would soon show up foaming at the mouth, something I mentioned earlier was nearly all of us have had him go sideways for one reason or another. Don't let it bother ya, it's typical.

I am worse when heading out of town, which I was. Not quite an apology yet, though. I have an email into New England Rope regarding the 5mm Tech Cord - will let you know if they respond.

Tom