Help? Canyoneers opinions needed.

[herophilos]

Fellow canyoneers, I'd love to have your input. Since I started canyoneering and fell in love with the sport four or five years ago, I have wanted clothing tailored to our sport. As you know, except for the 5.10 canyoneering shoes, there is nothing out there. I figured I might as well see if we couldn't get something going. My wife and I stood in the parking lots of Zion and at the trailheads to the a few canyon approaches to survey other canyoneers of their interest in clothing specifically designed for us. It was a blast to talk with other similarly-minded sportsmen and there was great enthusiasm and interest in what we are doing.
So, now, two years later and about $4-5K into the project, we have our third prototype of canyoneering pants/knickers/shorts and other products in earlier stages. I am in the process of establishing a relationship with big US ( yes, US) clothing manufacturing companies to start production of sample runs. This is where is starts to get really expensive.
Before moving any further forward, It would be tremendously helpful to have more input back from you all.

Would you buy clothing specifically designed and marketed to canyoneers?
What features would be important for you to see or have in such clothing?

A few features we currently have:
Made for wearing a harness (no pockets beneath harness, belt/suspension system is flat/non-bulky, closer fit)
Very High abrasion resistance materials, especially on back-side
Fast drying
Some models/designs with knee pads
Ventilation panels to help keep cool
Thigh pockets placed to allow access while hiking or rappelling.
Stirrups on full length pants

The specialized fabrics that tolerate the wear and abuse on sandstone and granite are pretty pricey. What price would you be willing to pay for such specially designed pants?

I'd love as much input as I can possibly get. I'd love a dialogue. I'd love to answer any questions you might have. Love, love, love!
If I get the right feedback and we move forward with the clothing line, I would need a few people that do a lot of canyoneering to test-drive the pants for me and provide detailed feedback. You would be directly involved with making sure this clothing is as close to perfect as possible for other canyoneers. Canyoneering clothing designed by canyoneers.

Goal for sales availability would be before Spring of next year.

Your help would be immensely appreciated.

Bob Watson
Reno, NV

[Scott P]

Would you buy clothing specifically designed and marketed to canyoneers?

No. Canyoneering is too rough on clothing for me to consider buying anything new to use in a canyon, unless it was very cheap. Cheap, thick clothing is best for mostly dry canyons. If it's not too hot, an old sweatshirt will do.

In wet canyons, I guess specialized clothing makes more sense, but often it's covered in a wetsuit.

[Slot Machine]

Welcome to the Bogley Mr. Watson.

I too would not buy clothing designed for canyoneers.

There is a big difference between canyon pants and canyon shoes. The same shoe setup (5.10’s Canyoneer 2 R.I.P.) works great for the majority of canyons. Not so with pants/shorts.

Leg coverings vary greatly depending on personal preference, abrasion, weather and water. I don’t think it is possible to create a pair of canyon pants that would sell even a small fraction of the volume that 5.10’s canyon shoes do because many combinations are needed, and too few canyoneering customers exist to justify the array of combinations. Canyoneers are also cheap as hell - they won’t pay for pants that will likely die in 5-10 canyon when they can get cheap disposable gym shorts at Wal-Mart.

If making these pants were possible and profitable, Mr. Jones would have already designed them by now. He is a genius in this regard. So, if I were a Shark Tank investor I’d say ‘no thanks’ then encourage you to save your own money and stop trying to design canyon pants.

-Bob

[uintafly]

I would have to agree with the previous two posts. Recently I have been buying my canyoneering pants at the DI. In fact, last weekend I destroyed a very stylish pair of linen pants complete with pleats, cuffs and creases. Luckily I paid $2 for them. Believe it or not, they were super light, cool and comfy. Plus someone had to bring some class to the canyons!

[herophilos]

Thank you above, for the input,
I'll do want to emphasize the point that the clothing is not regular clothing sold to canyoneers. It is designed specifically for our sport. It is designed for to last through the abuse of the canyons with specialized abrasion resistant fabrics and to accommodate our wearing a harness, being in and out of water, needing to climb, crawl, slide...
As well, it is not meant to be a shark tank winner. The canyoneering population is tiny and any profit margin would be small. BUT, I'm not looking for investors--just enough potential customers to justify the challenge and expense. My surveys in Zion indicate there is interest. I just need more data. So, your feedback is valued and appreciated.

Bob

Oh, and Scott P, I have taken to wearing my canyoneering clothing on the outside of my wetsuit. It protects my expensive investment.

[Wes1]

I usually buy $6 shorts from Wallmart, they last me 5 canyons. So if they cost $60, they would have to last 50 canyons. I think that's a lot to ask for, even out of even specifically designed canyoneering clothes.

[Absolute Gravity]

I think this is a no go, mostly because canyoneers are generally CHEAP, CHEAP, bastards, and any extra money they have is going to be spent on beer, Stan's Burger Shack, or rappel devices. The rest here applies to the small portion that are not. E.g. your potential market.


It is a definite no for me personally, but for the opposite reasons given so far. I've shredded exactly 2 pairs of pants and 0 shirts in the past 4 years. There are 3 shirts that have been with me on every canyoneering trip that I have ever been on, and will be with me on my next because they are still in great shape. In fact, I still own and use every shirt I've ever taken into a canyon, some ( at least 3 that I can count ) I still wear on a regular basis to my day job. The only gear I buy regularly are backpacks. The thick, heavy, and expensive pants material is a strike out for me.

In addition I find comfort while wearing a harness a non-issue so far as pants go as it is not a pants issue:
A: I don't think it is possible to produce a pair of pants that make wearing a harness comfortable while weighted and on rappel. It's the harness that is very 'junk' unfriendly and no amount of pants can fix that. I also wear my harness at my actual waist, generally above the 'waist' of my pants, so the belt area is, again, a non-issue.
B: The time you are in your harness is pretty short. Even if not, I don't find walking around in my harness to be uncomfortable.

I also would not want knee pads integrated into my pants. The angle of your knee and extension of your leg changes the position of the knee pad relative to your knee. It would be awful to not be able to quickly adjust my kneepad to where I wanted it to be rather than where my pants wanted it to be. Integrated knee pads would also tie the life of the knee pads to the life of the pants, and vice versa. Essentially if you are hard on one you are hard on the other.

So...I now see two types of canyoneering styles posted so far. One style is rough on their clothing and would not be in your market because there is no material tough enough to take their abuse and still be cost effective, let alone comfortable. The group that I fall into is not even rough enough on readily available synthetics to justify buying something that is much, much bulkier, heavier, hotter, and more expensive. There are people in between, but again, they are most likely cheap, cheap, bastards too, because, well, most of us are

I am not as cheap (pretty sure ) as most canyoneers I've met, but if I think something is going to tear in a canyon I slap $0.10 worth of gorilla tape on it and call it good, pants included.

[Slot Machine]

I'll do want to emphasize the point that the clothing is not regular clothing sold to canyoneers. It is designed specifically for our sport. It is designed for to last through the abuse of the canyons with specialized abrasion resistant fabrics and to accommodate our wearing a harness, being in and out of water, needing to climb, crawl, slide...

Understood. I should have been more precise with my words.

The canyoneering population is tiny and any profit margin would be small.

What is your price target? If $29.99 was your price target then you would sell some. I bet you sell 100 pairs a year at that price. What would your profit margin be? It that worth it to you? I'd consult with @ratagonia about a realistic volume projection, he knows how many canyoneers are out there and knows what they buy.

BUT, I'm not looking for investors--just enough potential customers to justify the challenge and expense. My surveys in Zion indicate there is interest. I just need more data. So, your feedback is valued and appreciated.

This is what I'd want in a pair of canyon pants: No pockets. Bulletproof material on the butt, sides of thighs, tops and lateral sides of knees. Grippy material around the knees to keep voleyball pads from sliding. Tops of thighs and mid-calfs to ankles would be made of well ventilated mesh, like old-school basketball shorts. Foot stirrups and a low-profile belt are great ideas. They should be form-fitting, so I can make fun of my fat friends that are wearing them, and so they aren't sliding around while I'm hiking.

If you actually create something like this, then I volunteer to be your first tester.

[Iceaxe]

I think this is a no go, mostly because canyoneers are generally CHEAP, CHEAP, bastards.

^^^THIS^^^

I've been involved in many different sports in my life and canyoneers are in a universe of their own when it comes to being cheap. Just getting your typical canyoneer to blow the dust off their wallet is a major feat.

In ways I'm surprised 5.10 has stuck around. About 10 years ago Nike produced a better canyoneering shoe, but Nike quickly pulled out after discovering getting canyoneers to part with coin was like pulling teeth.

I'd also suggest using Zion Canyoneering/canyoneers as your model is a poor choice as it's not a true reflection of the skinny gear shredding slots explored on the rest of the Colorado Plateau. For the most part the Zion Canyons are rap-n-swim kiddie canyons. I'm not saying they're not fun because they are, but they are not the gear shredders found elsewhere on the CP.

[Scott P]

It is designed for to last through the abuse of the canyons with specialized abrasion resistant fabrics and to accommodate our wearing a harness, being in and out of water, needing to climb, crawl, slide...

I'm skeptical that such a material would still be flexible and comfortable while squeezing, stemming, etc.

I've worked in mines, in construction, in refineries, and in the military where tough clothing is required. I can't think of any clothing that would stand up to the extreme abuse of canyoneering that would be comfortable (even then, in the industries mentioned above where tough clothing is required, it still has a short lifespan).

My surveys in Zion indicate there is interest

I don't know if Zion is the best place to gather all your data. Don't get me wrong; Zion if full of great canyons (including some very challenging ones), but generally, the canyons in Zion (even the hard ones) are easier on clothing than in other canyoneering spots in the Colorado Plateau. (Maybe bushwhacking is an exception). Unless you are looking to market your product to people who only canyoneer in Zion, I'd look to other areas as well.

I just need more data. So, your feedback is valued and appreciated.

I think you are getting plenty of feedback and data here.

Of course minds can still be changed. Here's my own stipulation for changing my mind:

If you fill your designed pants completely with rocks and drag them across pavement behind a car or truck moving at least 30 miles per hour for at least one mile, and if they are still intact with no holes, and if they are very comfortable to wear, and breath well, I would buy those pants for $100.

Good luck.

[Slot Machine]

About 10 years ago Nike produced a better canyoneering shoe, but Nike quickly pulled out after discovering getting canyoneers to part with coin was like pulling teeth.

You also mentioned to me that Nike bailed because they could only sell a couple hundred canyoneering shoes a year. Potatoes too small for them.

This lack of scalability is an important thing for @herophilos to consider when manufacturing canyon pants. It would be a labor of love, an awesome hobby that would quickly fill his canyon partner Rolodex, but not a viable business IMO.

If you fill your designed pants completely with rocks and drag them across pavement behind a car or truck moving at least 30 miles per hour for at least one mile, and if they are still intact with no holes, and if they are very comfortable to wear, and breath well, I would buy those pants for $100.

X2

[Iceaxe]

Marketing to canyoneers only is definitely fishing in a very small pond.

[herophilos]

LOL.. Well you guys certainly work to make your point--and know I appreciate it. I was more concerned people would be inclined to say, "go for it, yes!" thinking, if somebody else is willing to do that work and we get something cool out of it, great!
You might be surprised with the material we have found. I've been wearing the pants and the material is as comfortable as any other pant I've worn, BUT, this stuff is made with tiny ceramic discs on the surface and made for things like motorcycle crashes. There is a test for testing abrasion resistance called the Taber test. The test can be modified depending on what is being tested and what data endpoint is desired. The test is run until either the fabric has been abraded to near failure or to where there is actually a hole worn in the fabric. With the material on our last prototype (butt, posterior and lateral thigh), the test is actually stopped prior failure because it just keeps going and going. I'm telling you, I did my homework over the last three years.
Initial elements of design were conceived of by canyoneers including guides/instructors, and each prototype has been tested in the abusively tested in the canyons before modifications led to the next prototype.
Cost? Point taken, again. They wouldn't be cheap. No not $5, not $29, but hopefully under $100. Again, the idea is that they fit, accommodate, and protect better, and last (no, not forever, but much longer). The kneepad concern--addressed (and pretty slick, I do say). Ventilation--addressed. Pocket placement and access--addressed. Abrasion resistance--addressed.... Cost--This is more of an altruistic pursuit, not to make money, but because even a small run for the not-so-cheap canyoneers out there would be a chunk of change for me to dole out, I am digging.

So, gentlemen, If you wouldn't mind. I'd like to compare your demographics to what I have so far--part of our market research. How old are you? Would you mind sharing your current field of employment? Approximately how many canyons have you done?

I think it's very cool you guys have been willing to add your thoughts. I am grateful. I am still hoping to get more feedback from Bogley. I have surveys from 5 states with more to come soon.
Happy canyoneering, all. Keep collecting memories and be safe.

[Iceaxe]

How old are you?

55

current field of employment?

Structural Engineer

Approximately how many canyons have you done?

1000+

Anyone that knows how many canyons they have done hasn't done very many.

[Slot Machine]

You might be surprised with the material we have found. I've been wearing the pants and the material is as comfortable as any other pant I've worn,

Can we see a photo of these pants? What happens when they get wet (i.e. Do they double in weight)? Do they dry quickly?

BUT, this stuff is made with tiny ceramic discs on the surface and made for things like motorcycle crashes. There is a test for testing abrasion resistance called the Taber test. The test can be modified depending on what is being tested and what data endpoint is desired. The test is run until either the fabric has been abraded to near failure or to where there is actually a hole worn in the fabric. With the material on our last prototype (butt, posterior and lateral thigh), the test is actually stopped prior failure because it just keeps going and going.

Rad!

each prototype has been tested in the abusively tested in the canyons before modifications led to the next prototype.

Abused in which canyons? I want to make sure we are thinking of the same level of abuse.

[TommyBoy]

I'm willing to spend some money on gear if it lasts long enough. I figure you actually spend about the same either way, cheap stuff doesn't last long, but its cheap. The good stuff you pay more for and you get more out of it, and you don't have to keep hitting up DI every other trip to replace what you destroyed. If its comfortable and you can get some good use out of it before its destroyed I'd be willing to consider it for the right price. Slot Machines comment on how they handle when wet is very important though, if they take forever to dry that would be a deal breaker for me.

[Scott P]

How old are you?

41.

Would you mind sharing your current field of employment?

Civil Engineering

Approximately how many canyons have you done?

Thousands, but only couple hundred ones that are technical. I have about 30 years experience in technical canyons.

BUT, this stuff is made with tiny ceramic discs on the surface and made for things like motorcycle crashes.

Would it leave scratch marks on canyon walls?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I said I was skeptical, I would be curious to see these pants.

[Scott P]

..

[Bootboy]

Sounds like something that would be sold in a shop in Springdale that would only be bought once by people who have yet to do their first canyon but want to look "pro". Kinda like North Face jacket and zip-off pants on rich newbs. But I suppose there is that segment of the market.

I personally wear neoprene shorts with roof sealant on the butt and cheap, $5 polyester shirts over my wetsuit or over a regular shirt for dry canyons.

I can get ~50 canyons (did 62 last year) out of one pair of shorts and 2 shirts. My main wetsuit has ~95 canyons on it in the same conditions and is in pretty good shape.

Im talking hi-wear canyons too, e.g. Escalante, Glen Canyon, North Wash etc... not Zion stuff. I canyoned in Zion for 2 years and never even felt inclined to buy knee or elbow pads because I didn't need them, neither did my wetsuit.

Total cost for my get up is less than $25.

The folks I go out on the fringes with are, for the most part, live-out-of-a-car type dirt bags who don't have normal jobs because we spend too much time in the desert and are cheap bastards.


It would be a boutique item worn by rich, once-a-year Zion canyoneers.

[bosco]

Watson,

If you came out with a product that was backed by a warranty similar to that of Patagonia or Osprey, I can't say the product wouldn't interest me. I can think of a number of challenging points I would consider when "investing" in such a pant, however I presently use my old Carhartts, which have sufficed. If you could match the durability of Carhartts in a faster drying pant, I'd be very inclined to check it out!

Way to venture out there!

Bosco